I'm going to try my best to get to your stuff, but I've been incredibly busy with school and my mother being in the hospital for surgery. I've been answering questions on the side, but I have been reading your posts, just not having the time to construct answers.
Hey Omega, how've you been? If you recall back to when I posted that summary of The Last: Naruto the Movie, you saw that it was translated by a person on tumblr named Utapurinsesu. After reading through the summary, I created a tumblr account so I could get in touch with this person and ask him some questions that we all had. Well, we stayed in contact all this time, and we've been talking about a bunch of things. One of the more interesting ones is a almost (he has 10 minutes left to summarize that he will do at another time) complete summary of the interview Kishimoto did with Kobayashi (here is a link to the interview). While I'm sure you read a few bits about this from other sources (this is the same interview that said Neji died to make NaruHina happen, and that Kishimoto originally wanted to have Naruto and Sasuke holding hands instead of losing their arms), Utapurinsesu went into a lot more detail, and revealed some interesting facts. I thought it was pretty cool, so I figured I'll post what he said for you to see. Just so you know, I'm posting exactly what he wrote from our conversations, so if some things don't make sense, ask me for any context. Alright, here's the full summary:
8.18 – 8:43 about Kagebunshin
Ko “I actually wanted to ask you about that afterwards”
Ki “Oh sorry” [laughs]
Ko ”But I’ll ask now. We get the impression that you kinda dug your own grave with that one” [drawing Naruto with so many bunshin from the start]
Ki “Yeah I think so”
Ko “Because you went and did right from chapter 1”
Ko “So you had to balance his power from the start”
Ki “That’s right. He [Naruto] quickly got stronger, didn’t he. When he improved, his number of bunshin increased too. I just thought ‘Ive really done it now!’”
Ok, so now from the actual Q&A session, I’ll just summarize what was said because its far too long… Here is the first half and I’ll do the second half another time.
Q1: ”I’ve always wondered where you began to come up with the concept of ‘Naruto’ as a story and thought that that’s what yoou’d write about.”
A: Apparently he started out wanting to write a story about an old guy who owns a ramen shop and a young boy comes by, or something uninteresting like that. Other things also got mixed in with that like a story which was supposed to be really spectacular and it was about straightening up their lives and other emotive plots… He showed that to his publishers but they told him the story is way too far from what they want, and Kobayashi agrees that it doesn’t have any elements befitting a weekly Shounen Jump series.
He started to research other shounen series (especially Akira Toriyama, who he was a big fan of). In the end the name ‘Naruto’ came from this failed story attempt, as well as the obvious influences that made it into the actual series.
Then he made a story not about ninjas but about youkai (demons), where the main character was a fox who shape-shifted into a human. This story changed again so he made the fox demon into a human and redrew the whole thing, and submitted that version
He wanted to do something different to other artists who had written about ninjas, so made Naruto blond, more like a foreigner than a ninja. He also decided to make ninjas more about ‘helping/ protecting’ rather than ‘dying’ and also less about ‘staying hidden’. After trying this out, he was then asked by kids ‘Is that really a ninja?’ and he thought ‘Uh oh. I’ve gone off on a tangent again!’ But he decided he wanted to stick with it anyway and his publishers also said its fine only being this far off the mark [about what a ninja is].
Q2: “Do you remember how you came about the catchphrase ‘dattebayo’?”
[This answer was kinda hard for me to understand coz the logic in his answer kinda jumps around a bit. This is what I THINK he meant]
A: He decided to make a catchphrase that sounded silly that an old person etc would come out with. He also thought something that sounded like a speech impediment would be good, so decided to go with ‘dattebayo’”.
Q3: “Did you have to think hard about [the setting/ creation of] naruto’s classmates?”
A: Kishimoto didn’t actually originally intend for that kind of setting. Originally he intended to focus on various missions that Naruto went on, meeting 4-man cells from other villages. The teachers of the 4-man cell would be Kakashis rival. But after discussing this with his editor, he was told there wouldn’t be time for such a slow-paced development, so he needed to come bring all these characters and villages out at once. You’re going to make a tournament. Kishimoto said he can’t do it and if he did it’d kill him [not literally], but he was told to do it even if it kills him. That is how the Chuunin exams arc came about. That was what he was forced to do. But even now he wish he could do his original idea about focusing on missions.
So he found it really difficult coming up with so many new characters and their designs in one go with no material to go on. So he asked for some designs from his editor to help, who saw a really weird looking keychain (?) and made drawings based on that, and that’s where Gai and Lee’s etc designs came from.
Kobayashi says that listening to what he said earlier about Kakashi’s rival, it sounds like he was originally planning for team Gai to be from another village when introducing them here [since they weren’t introduced with the other rookies/ teachers]. Kishimoto says that was originally the case, but they decided it was better for Kakashi to have a rival from inside the village so they went with this instead and introduced Team Gai as being from Konoha.
Kishimoto also says that the series picked up popularity thanks to the tournament aspect to find out who’d win, and even Kishimoto himself started to enjoy writing this part. But his editorial team told him to introduce a villain called Orochimaru in there that would stop the tournament from being finished instead. Kishimoto was disappointed since he was really getting into it, and had already put out the idea that he wanted Shikamaru to win. But before being told to put in the plot development of the tournament being destroyed, Kishimoto does admit that he was worrying about how to write Shikamaru’s fights for the rest of the tournament and make him the winner, since Shikamaru has an IQ of 200 and he [Kishimoto] doesn’t have a very high one, so he didn’t know how to pull it off.
Q4: “Why did you decide to introduce a strong enemy like Zabuza right at the beginning of the series?”
A: Kishimoto says that he wanted to do this right off the bat to show off Kakashi’s strength as an example of what an experienced ninja can do in the Narutoverse. This would set some cornerstones down in the manga straight away and make it easier for the audience to put things into perspective. Kobayashi points out that there were many things introduced in this arc that played huge roles right until the end of the series (kekkei genkai, sharingan etc), but Kishimoto just said he was ‘bluffing’ with these things in the beginning [nb: in other words he just made them up without any thought on how to use them in the future]. At the time he was just making these things up for the excitement and suspense, but didn’t pick up on what to do with some of these threads long-term until later. Basically he was making it up as he went.
Even with Sasuke’s backstory, at the time of the Wave Arc, all that had been thought out was that Sasuke had an elder brother who had done something bad, and that was it. Kishimoto admits the planning was very hazy at this point.
However, at the point where Itachi is actually introduced, Kishimoto had decided to secretly make him a good guy, but the reason he did something bad was because of circumstances. Kishimoto also says that although he introduced the Sharingan as being able to copy moves, the premise on what the Sharingan could do changed drastically over the course of the storyline.
Kobayashi comments that the concept of focusing on eyeballs in a Shounen manga is unique, and Kishimoto laughs and agrees. Kishimoto explains that theres a really old story called ‘Take of the Gallant Jiraiya’ that often comes up in Kabuki and the like, where the main character Jiraiya actually has the Sharingan. Kishimoto decided to take the concept of the Sharingan from this story and create the Uchiha clan to give the Sharingan to. And because Kakashi also has a Sharingan despite not being an Uchiha, he wanted this to be a mystery that kept readers interested as to how he got it.
Kobayashi comments that this mystery isn’t explained until Kakashi Gaiden much, much further down the line, but even so, you can see the group picture of Kakashi, Obito, Rin and Minato early on in the series [Kobayashi is showing a page from chapter 16]. Kishimoto says that may be so, but even by chapter 16 he had already decided this storyline, about Obito being an Uchiha, and that Minato was Naruto’s dad (but doesn’t confirm if he’d decided Minato’s name by then).
Speaking of Minato, even though his identity was confirmed by this point, to begin with Kishimoto hadn’t thought of creating a fourth Hokage or him being Naruto’s dad. Kishimoto knew that he would have to introduce what had happened to his dad somewhere in the story, but didn’t know how to do it. Before coming up with Minato as the 4th Hokage, Minato’s spot on the Hokage Monument was actually taken by a dog [nb: you read that right, a dog]. He explains that at the time he actually wanted to try out that a ‘ninken’ (ninja dog) like those owned by the Inuzuka had been the Hokage at one point. But his editor told him he was thinking off on a tangent again, so instead of that just make him the main character’s dad instead.
On the popularity of characters -
Kobayashi asks if Kishimoto had any idea how popular he thought Kakashi would be, as he became the most popular character, to which Kishimoto replies that he had no idea how he became so popular. Kobayashi says he’s missing the point and they both laugh, and suggests that maybe the reason is because Kakashi is cool.
Kobayashi then says that Jiraiya was also popular, to which Kishimoto agrees. Kobayashi suggests that it’s because he’s always acting pervy and has Icha Icha etc. Kishimoto goes on to say that the characters he actually having the intention to become popular actually flopped. This is the case of Sai, who wasn’t well received at all. Kimimaro was also the same. Kimimaro was actually popular at first, but as soon as he was shown to pull out his spinal cord his popularity disappeared. Kobayashi suggests that maybe it’s because it grossed the fans out, especially female fans.
On Sakura’s popularity & character -
Kobayashi then asks about Sakura. Kishimoto says he tried to write her more realistically [than other characters], and tried to show a girl’s ‘real’ self/ feelings [through inner Sakura]. He thought she would appeal to female fans, but was surprised when she actually became hated. Kobayashi asks if there was a lot of Sakura hate, and Kishimoto says there was, and even young girls told him they hate her. Kishimoto said that he continued on regretting Sakura’s character. Kobayashi apologizes for bringing up the painful memories as Kishimoto apologizes for tailing off (lol).
Kobayashi said that his team were discussing in a meeting why Sakura’s family was never written. He says that they eventually appeared in a movie, but not in the manga. Even when all the parents are shown along with their children during the war, and even random relatives are shown, Sakura’s parents aren’t seen. He says that they came across like a civilian family and kind of made Sakura seem on the side-lines. He asks Kishimoto why this is, and Kishimoto replies that, honestly speaking, Sakura was that unpopular that even if he expanded on her… (nb. He tails off in what he’s saying). Kobayashi reiterates Kishimoto’s statement, and Kishimoto tells him that’s right, to which Kobayashi laughs.
Kobayashi asks if it was too late to drop her, and Kishimoto says that he just had to persevere with her, and thought about how to raise her popularity. In the 4th volume, a cover page shows her with Katsuyu, so this was the direction he tried to work in. In later volumes, he tries to draw her more beautifully. On the cover page of Vol 66, he drew Sasuke and Naruto quickly, but with Sakura he took a long time to draw her beautifully and was using source materials as guides. But he says that in the end no one really took notice (it had no effect), and Hinata’s popularity just kept going up on its own.
Kishimoto explains that Hinata, like Sakura, never really did anything but her popularity just kept going up and up, so part way through the story he started to wonder whether he should make her the main heroine instead, or at least gradually write her into the direction of the heroine.
They then go on to talking about Part II/ Shippuden.
On Shippuden’s/ Part II’s plot -
Kobayashi starts off asking about whether there was framework put in place for the direction of Shippuden’s story. Kishimoto replies that because Naruto and his group were so weak as genin in the first part, so he wanted to make them stronger in the second part. This is especially because he introduced the Akatsiki, who are all Jonin level, so he had to make the main cast stronger too. He also used the timeskip as a chance to change their clothes, since he didn’t like the swirl on the arm of Naruto’s jacket, and also his thick collar in Part 1 got in the way of his face in action scenes. So he drew a small collar and dropped the swirl. He also added the headband with the long tails at the back so they would stand out and flutter during action scenes.
On Akatsuki -
Kobayashi then goes on to say that when the Akatsuki were first introduced [when they were as shadows during their meetings] it was really exciting. Kobayashi says his favorite pair were Hidan and Kakuzu, to which Kishimoto agrees, saying Hidan was his favorite overall. Kobayashi says that they gave off a real sense of danger and malice. He also says that the concept of them both being immortal, albeit for different reasons, was really interesting. Kishimoto said he was worried at first about how he was depicting Hidan, who stabbed himself then said it felt good. Kobayashi says that it’s also the case of the damage he inflicted on Asuma.
On censorship scenes -
Kobayashi then brings up the scene where Shikamaru is smoking Asuma’s cigarette, saying that it gave off the feeling of a boy becoming an adult. Kishimoto said he didn’t think they’d be able to show this in the anime. Kobayashi admits he was worried when this first came out. Kishimoto said that he thought he’d be told he can’t show a minor smoking [in the manga], since manga regulations are very strict. He had a meeting with his editor about whether he should change it or not, and in the end his editor told him to not worry about it and just try and go through with it anyway. If the people above wanted to edit it they would. Kobayashi brings up a scene where Hidan’s head is lopped off, and Kishimoto comments that the editing department told him to add black bars at the side for censoring. Kobayashi asks if Hidan is still buried underground, and Kishimoto says he is. Kishimoto wondered whether to put him in the war, but in the end he didn’t want to have even more characters to draw, so he didn’t.
Kobayashi then brings up the scene where Shikamaru is smoking again and he starts crying and flicks the cigarette away, Kobayashi comments that for a shounen series this was an incredibly serious scene. Kobayashi asks if he likes this kind of stuff, and Kishimoto says that surprisingly he does like these kinds of movies etc. He can’t out too much of this kind of thing into a shounen series, but he put in a little bit of something he finds interesting.
Kobayashi then asks about Akatsuki, saying they’re not just a normal organization, and they don’t really know much about each other. (nb: this next line I’m not sure about) Kishimoto says that in real life there are such professional organizations where a group of individuals come together, so he wanted to draw a parallel to that. And he drew Pain to be the leader bringing together these individuals.
On camera & layout techniques in the manga -
Kobayashi asks if the scene where Pain first appears looking down on the world was difficult, because the background was very complex. Kishimoto says it was very difficult, and at first he had to carefully pencil everything out. Kishimoto says that he also drew the detailed background in the scene where Naruto is looking down over Konoha when he first comes back. Kishimoto said he had to draw it to make the whole image come together properly. Kobayashi notices a sign in Pain’s scene that reads ‘hankerchief’ and asks about it, and Kishimoto says it’s a homage to [another series called] Bobobo-Bobobobo. Kobayashi comments that it’s amazing considering he only had one week to do this for the deadline. Kishimoto says that image took him 3 days to do.
Kobayashi then brings up about other unique shots, like the shot of Deidara sitting on Gaara’s body (which has a fish-eye lens effect). Kishimoto says he loves that kind of shot and was inspired by the work ‘Akira’. He says he like how it adds depth to the world using that lens method. Kobayashi shows the cover page of chapter 106 commenting that it looks like the kind of shot found in pervy AV [Adult Video= softporn] films. Kishimoto states that he’s never researched that kind of thing.
Kobayashi then shows the scene where Naruto punches Haku, which is showing the same punch but at three different angle. Kishimoto comments that this is a technique often used in films known as ‘double action’. He says that in Jackie Chan’s movies for example, it is used to emphasis the strength of the punch. Kishimoto says he wanted to use that effect in his manga. Kobayashi says he has a question about why the faces aren’t shown when Naruto hits someone, and if that was intentional. Kishimoto replies that it is cooler that way, because rather than the focus being on the face, the focus of attention is on the body’s [recoil] and it’s more expressive that way. He says that in important scenes he plans it so to not draw they’re faces.
Kobayashi then asks about another layout technique he uses, where in Naruto/ Sasuke fights the Naruto and Sasuke panels are connected on the left and right page, and the development of action progresses from the top of the page to the bottom. Kishimoto says that this is a manga technique that he thought to use that is easy to follow, as both are connected it doesn’t matter where you are looking you can easily follow what both sides are doing at the same time. He says that he designed it to be quick and simple to skim over and not to emphasis looking at the details, since you’re reading both pages at the same time.
Kobayashi shows an example of a complicated double-page layout. Kishomoto says that the panels are messed up and random to express the confusion of the fight, and the reader also doesn’t know where to look. Also, because it makes you look around the page quickly, it adds a sense of speed to the battle as well. Kobayashi understands that this was a deliberate technique, because at the time he wondered if it was OK for Kishimoto to have submitted this for publication.
On the War arc
Moving on, Kobayashi comments that the war arc must have been very difficult. Kishimoto says it was, and that in the Pain fight, Pain comments about Naruto not having experienced war. This part set the story towards the war arc, so Naruto could come up with his final answer after having experienced war for himself. Kishimoto explains that this conversation in the Pain arc meant that he couldn’t back down from steering the story towards a war arc. Kobayashi says that everyone popped up during the war arc, and Kishimoto said that he wanted to use that as a way to wrap things up from the entire series so far.
He says he did an unimportant old man fight between Mifune and Hanzo, which was unusual for a shounen manga. He said he was told off [by his editor?] and told to drop the old man fight already. Kobayashi says that actually, that fight was his [Kobayashi’s show’s] directors favorite fight. Kishimoto thanks him. Kobyashi shows one part of that fight scene and comments how they are thinking back in the past as they are fighting. Kishimoto said he originally wanted to do a seppuku (ritual suicide) scene, but then he started to think it’d be a bit harsh to do that considering he’s an old man, so he started to go off the idea. Kobayashi asks about Mifune’s popularity with a shounen audience and Kishimoto replies that he wasn’t popular one bit. Kobayashi laughs and says that he thinks Mifune is cool, and that it’s interesting that samurai have developed to be on par with ninjas in a ninja world. Kishimoto says that if they didn’t develop, then… Kobayashi comments that they wouldn’t be samurai if they didn’t persist, and Kishimoto agrees. Kobayashi says that it’s a cool scene, but asks how it went down with a shounen audience. Kishimoto says that the opinion was ‘will this old man fight finish soon? The main characters not even in it’.
Kobayashi says he likes the war arc, and that he liked the 2nd Mizukage, who tells everyone his own weaknesses. Kishimoto says that even though he’s an old man as well, he was actually fairly popular. Kishimoto said he thought it’d be interesting to have that character actually give away how to defeat himself and to demend it be done quickly. Kobayashi asks whether doing the Edo Tensei was difficult, and Kishimoto says yes. He says that from the Pain arc onwards, Naruto just defeats the enemy without intent to kill and settles things verbally. Doing it this way is more shounen-like so he felt he had to go down this direction. But he felt this kind of killed the mood, so from there he introduced the zetsu clones (and Edo Tensei) to have someone to beat. Kobayashi asks about the characters that didn’t come back as Edo Tensei, like Jiraiya, Konan and Hidan. Kishimoto said he didn’t want Jiraiya to come back, because he couldn’t possibly write it in a good way. Jiraiya’s death was a big part of Naruto’s development and brought him closer to understanding Sasuke’s feelings, so bringing Jiraiya back would undo that. The Edo Tensei was mostly a way to draw Madara out into the story.
They go on to talk about Madara’s appearance, and that it’s the real him rather than just the Rinne Tensei. Kishimoto says it kind of ended up complicated about reviving him with Rinne Tensei or with Edo Tensei and the difference between the two.
On Sakura’s Love Letter scene -
Kobayashi laughingly brings up the unusual scene where Sakura gets a love letter [during the war]. Kishimoto explains that the reason for that was to give the anime team a lead for a [filler] story, because if they just kept doing the war arc at the pace they were going at then they would catch up with the manga. Kobayashi says this ‘Love letter incident’ is an unbelievable occurrence, and Kishimoto admits that he didn’t know what to write, he just had to put something. Kobayashi finds this hilarious and asks ‘so your answer was a love letter, then?’
On Neji’s death -
Kobayashi comments that there were many casualties during the war, but he was surprised about Neji, and asks Kishimoto why he was chosen. Kishimoto explains that because he decided to make Hinata into the lead heroine a while back, he used Neji’s death as a way to bring her and Naruto together. He goes on to explain that although there is the scene where she stands up to Pain, he wanted to create an opening for Naruto to consciously realize that she is by his side and thank her for that, so he used Neji’s death to do this. Kishimoto says that in this way Neji sort of took on the role of cupid for the two of them. He then explains that it was at this time when Kishimoto came up with the name of ‘Bolt’ for their son, which has a similar meaning to ‘Neji’ (screw), as a homage to the late uncle who brought his parents together. Kishimoto says that ‘if’ there is a manga about Bolt (nb: it wasn’t confirmed by this point), he wants to include scenes focusing on Neji. Kobayashi asks if it’s ok to mention something like this [project], and Kishimoto says that this is only hypothetical.
On the final battle between Naruto & Sasuke -
Kobayashi says the war arc was great, and then goes on to asking about the final battle between Naruto and Sasuke. Kishimoto said that because Sasuke was introduced as a rival character in the beginning, he also wanted the manga to end with Sasuke and Naruto fighting as rivals. Kobayashi comments that this conclusive battle has been a long time coming, and that it has been a long time since Sasuke first left the village. Kishimoto agrees and says that after writing his leaving arc, he was a bit frustrated because he didn’t know what to do with him anymore. But he said he could also understand Sasuke’s actions after leaving the village in some ways, and Kobayashi agrees. Kishimoto said he wanted the audience to understand Sasuke’s point of view, and wrote the story so he could push this idea. Kishimoto also explains that there were times when his editor told him he hasn’t properly captured Sasuke’s facial expression to show his character, and sometimes had to redraw him many times. He said that both he and Sakura were always a pain to draw. Kakashi was also difficult to draw facial expressions for since his face is covered. Kobayashi comments that designing these characters this way is Kishimoto’s form of self-hatred, and they laugh.
About the final battle, Kishimoto says he didn’t want them to use ninjutsu. He said he wanted it to end in a boys’ fist fight, despite it not being in the usual spirit of Jump (and they bothered him about it). He then goes on to talk about when they both lose their arms (which is their dominant arm), relates back to a flashback in the beginning of the manga where they cross each other’s fingers, but now they can’t do that. So he used the Madara and Hashirama statues, who represented Indra and Asura, to hold hands instead, with Naruto and Sasuke on top. Kishimoto said he’s always wanted to draw this scene, even since Part I.
On ending the manga -
Kobayashi flicks through that chapter and comments that one of the daimyo looks like himself. Also in another panel there is a picture of one of Kishimoto’s cats in the background. Kobayashi then asks about the Jolly Roger mark on the Hokage Monument in chapter 700. Kishimoto says that it is a tribute to his fellow-managaka, Eiichiro Oda, who wrote One Piece. In the back of the Jump volume, there are some messages from his fellow managakas, and Oda’s says that they are rivals. Kishimoto says he feels the same way. He also says he was surprised, because he never heard they’d do that [publishing messages from all the authors to him], and it’s the first time something like that has been done. Kobayashi says that it’s a sign that he is a great mangaka who has created an amazing piece of work, and Kishimoto thanks him.
I'm leaving this here in order not to make the discussions message any longer than it is.
I'm sorry for bugging you so adamantly (as that's what I'm doing), but my OCD can't help it. If you couldn't tell, I'm a very organized person and I like planning stuff. That's why I ask you if you'll be able to get to any of the three topics I mentioned over the weekend so I can plan to write a response (as it does take some time to completely organize/write my thoughts). Besides the fact that I'm really antsy to get some of your thoughts on all the topics I mentioned, I just really want to know what the deal is so I can plan accordingly. Therefore, when you see this message, can you please just let me know what the deal is for this weekend?
Because seriously, the only rule I can see myself having broke was rule number 12. And even then, I did research myself, I just wanted to see if someone knew of a specific interview or something where the answer was given, so it isn't really breaking the rule if someone did actually know the answer. The least you can do, too, is to give a reason on WHY a question was deleted. Otherwise, people will just be pissed off with you (i.e. me) because you just seem like a jerk who goes around deleting questions.
The 12th Question Guideline still stands, you asked the question even though you, yourself, had done extensive research on the subject. The editors also could not come to a concrete answer, instead answering the question with conjecture. This further proved the 12th point, that no one here had put anymore effort into the topic than you did, and cannot be expected to.
So, to answer your question on whether someone here knew, the answer is "No".
I recognize that, but you should know that I delete dozens of questions that do not follow guidelines every day. It does not make any sense to write a written explanation for each one. I have hotkey'd most of the deleting function to save me time anyway.
The explanation such as "Question Guideline", is the explanation you receive. Most questions are in direct conflict with these guidelines, but sometimes questions, most including the 12th point, do come under question. At which point, I answer any questions the questioner has, they only need ask. As you did.
I do, however, write written explanations for deletion of Blog Postings, as much more effort goes into the making of those. That is in our Blogging Policy, but we specifically do not include questions in that listing for the very same reason I listed above.
So when you delete a question and it shows who deleted it, it's hard to simply add to that right there "violates question guideline number 12"? But I am not here to argue this. Just looking for clarification.
No, you don't understand the coding. As the Systems Operator I have tabs that can delete questions based on certain criteria. One button is "QG" for questions that violate the Question Guidelines. There isn't anything more specific I can do. Believe me, going that indepth on the topic isn't usually necessary. You say "people are frustrated when the questions get deleted", but to tell you the truth, you are the first one whose brought forth an issue in some time. Not to say there isn't any, but usually our questioners are accepting of the guidelines and acknowledge when a question violates the guidelines or policies. Not that you questioning is wrong, it's perfectly fine, I just want you to know that most don't make such a big deal out of the process as you might think.
On an unrelated note, I think that this website has overlived its usefulness. Not only do we have forums over at narutopedia for quite some time, where questions can be asked, but also episode discussions among others take place, not to mention the activity around here has gotten quite low. What do you think?
Actually, to tell you the truth, we still have a fine inflow of questions. I can answer four or five a day still, and that isn't including the ones I catch. Activity of the site has dropped, that's true, but as long as questions are still being asked, I really don't think I would call it useless.
True for the questions, but the community is gone. No talkpage/blog activity and it's like 2-3 people answering those questions and perhaps only twice of that who ask them. Narutopedia on the other hand is still semi-active (not as much as it used to be, but quite so). Who "owns" this website anyway?
Well, you know. This site was never about the talkpage/blog activities anyway. It was for the questions. This site is called Naruto Answers not Naruto Blog/Forums. There are plenty of sites out there that can as forums and blogs, but this is the only sites that answers the questions everyone has alone. The question really should be what is the point of a site that just wants to discuss Naruto. There are hundreds of sites out there, what makes Narutopedia and Naruto Answers different is the information available, not the community. The community you could get anywhere.
This site's "owner" is UltimateSupreme, but Jacce and I have always been the big site operators, with Cerez popping up here or there.
Good points of course, but it's not forbidden to ask questions over at Narutopedia forums, though. But maybe you are right and it's good this place exists, otherwise Narutopedia would get spammed/overflowed with questions. Btw, how is your lawyer degree coming along?
Glad to hear it. Perhaps now you get a picture of how difficult it is to just "come up" with the OST at the drop of the hat. Like I said earlier, not all of the soundstracks were released, hence why you ended up finding yours from a third-party in an unofficial form.
This is a continuation of this thread, as it was getting too long.
To make the transitions smoothly, here is a list of all the questions to ponder so you don't have to go back and forth between different threads (however, it might be beneficial to read the last long post I wrote, as there were some interesting ideas there):
Questions for Discussion:
When I write my alternate back story for Kaguya, can I get your opinion/feedback on it (I actually might be able to write it some time tomorrow)?
I knew you were okay with the mass revival at the end of the Pain Arc, but how did you feel about the actual TnJ segment between Naruto and Nagato? Don't you think it doesn't make a little sense about how Naruto convinced Nagato so easily?
(Direct quote from the Overview- best way to display this question) I was more talking about the abilities of Juubito and Juudara itself, not the actual person. I remember a lot of people speculating that Obito would be able to use every single chakra nature for attacks, and though that's kind of what happened with the Truth-Seeking Balls, a lot of people were disappointed because they felt like Juubito wasn't much of a threat. How do you feel about that?
What is the largest character flaw(s) from your favorite character (either Naruto and/or Madara) in your eyes? For example, I noted on Justin's blog that my biggest problem with Naruto was the Child of Prophecy stuff (if you read my previous post, you'll know I pointed out flaws with Sasuke- I'm not trying to just sh!t on Naruto/Madara).
I wonder sometimes if there are more Sasuke fans or haters- which do you think there are more of?
Since you didn't touch on it, let me ask (since I was hoping it would give you something to ponder)- what do you think of my analysis of why Sasuke used the Tailed Beast's chakra to battle Naruto? Do you think there was more going on, or did he just absorb their chakra for the sake of doing it? (BTW, this is from two posts ago- not my previous long one)
What do you think were Naruto's most challenging battles over the course of the series? Also, like I said in the previous post, what fight would you consider "the fight of Naruto's life" (as I said, I consider it the final fight with Sasuke- the same goes for Sasuke, with the Itachi battle being a close second)?
To what extent do you think it would take for the Tailed Beasts to wake up? My best guess is that their chakra will naturally replenish itself as time passes, which would allow them to wake up and aid Naruto. Also, where did you read that Toneri needed the Six Paths Sage Mode Chakra to use his green orbs (don't post a link- just tell me what the source said)?
Since the anime won't be ending anytime soon (confirmed by SP), why do you still think they'd put a lot of effort into Naruto vs. Sasuke?
That (Naruto's first Tailed Beast Mode Transformation) was an awesome moment, but that wasn't in 2014... Do you have any favorite moments and/or chapters from 2014 (661-700)?
Are the GoT books good? Have you considered watching the show?
What do you think of the character Kakashi (attitude/personality, background, relationships, powers, fights, etc)?
Which fight do you think resulted in more damage to the landscape- Hashirama vs. Madara or Naruto vs. Sasuke?
Regarding the Volume 72 cover, I completely agree. I do think it is a little too simplistic for it's own good. While it still feels right to have Naruto as the Hokage looking over the village, it's almost very dull. How do you feel about the fact that it only features Naruto and no other character (while also not displaying any of the events of Naruto vs. Sasuke- the main focus of the Volume)? Also, how do you feel about Naruto with his back turned towards the front? While it makes sense to see his jacket that says "7th Hokage", at the same time I do wish we saw the front of Naruto- not his back. Your thoughts?
Hey Omega- turns out I won't be going to see my grandfather this weekend after all; I'll be seeing him next week, and we'll be able to watch the Super Bowl together.
The reason I say this is because I was wondering if you could try to get to a few of the points above or the Otsutsuki blog so that I can try and respond before the week starts again. And once more, how are you readjusting? Thanks, and I'll talk to you later.
Yeah, I'm not a big football person either (baseball is my favorite), but I get interested around this time of the year. I'm too happy about who is playing this year- I wanted Green-bay to win, but Seattle came back and so now they're in it. But I guess I'm rooting for them because I don't respect New England- definitely amidst the cheating rumors (again!).
That's exactly how it was when I went back; very hard to get on here often. That's why I'm usually on here more often on the weekends, but I'm still free every now and then during the week day.
Like I said, you don't have to get to every question I posted above right now. Break it down so it's easier for you. Tbh, I'm more interested in your opinion on the Otsutsuki blog at this current moment, as I'm just really proud of my work and I want to know your thoughts on it.
Flattered that I was connected to your 10,000th edit! :D BTW, how much longer until you get the 365 Days Achievement?
I have one more thing thing to add to the list of questions, and it has a bit of a backstory to it.
I posted the Naruto Series Overview on Narutopedia to see what they felt, and right now there is a big debate about the character of Naruto Uzumaki. Everyone is saying that the biggest flaw is that he is the Child of Prophecy/reincarnate of Asura, and that completely negates what he stood for in Part I. However, I disagree- Naruto's biggest character flaw is the fact that he learned he was the "Child of Prophecy" and was destined to save the world, but he never addressed this fact, debated it's accuracy, or questioned it's legitimacy. However, the Naruto from Part I would have absolutely debated the idea that he was destined for greatness, and would have stated that the reasons for his success were all due to his own hard work and perseverance
Now here is where my question for you to be added to the list:
How do you feel about this? Not the fact that Naruto was the CoP after stating that he didn't believe in destiny in Part I, but the fact that he didn't debate or question this claim when he learned about it- what do you think about that?
Yes, I did explain to you once, and you are marked at the time that you were impressed with how indepth I thought about it. It was some time ago though, so I'm not surprised you didn't remember. You should know though that all Perfect Jinchuriki have this advantage, including Killer Bee. It's just Killer Bee's regular state isn't as strong as Naruto's Sage Mode state, so when Bee runs out of chakra, it is much more serious than when Naruto does.
I'm not hostile, I just want you to know I don't justify Naruto's actions, but I can rationalize them. Its easy to look at Naruto's actions and call BS, especially when he's not your favorite character. You should know that favoriting characters goes both ways, not only do you justify the actions of your favorite, but you are more critical to other characters.
Well, for the most part, I liked most everything about Madara's character. Hence why I was so upset when they replaced him with Kaguya, who has the personality of a stump. Madara's character needed, in my opinion, just a little more crazy and power-hungry. His character rode dangerously on that "I have a sad past" train for a long time, but the more his character was developed the more it seemed like he was really just crazy and wanted to become a god, and was just using his past as an excuse. It just felt like Madara was trying to break from the constrictions of the world he felt was controlling him life, to gain the power needed to just start it all over with the power of the Chakra Fruit using Infinite Tsukuyomi. I personally think a this would have made a much more interesting storyline point, as it would make Madara seem a lot more crazier than he really is, which from what I can see, one of his most endearing characteristics. Naruto on the other hand, could have used a bit less self-righteousness and a bit more badass. He basically could have learned a thing or two from his father, who was cold and calculated on the field, and this war didn't really do him any justice in that department. I also think they really played on Naruto's dullness a little too much, sure someone is rather hard-headed when their young, especially when they are only able average intelligence, but we don't need it constantly thrown it in our faces, especially when Naruto is obviously not an idiot, his actions make that clear. It just seemed less like a character flaw and more like they were just pushing it try and get a laught for comedic effect. In truth, we all get much smarter as we get older, even if we aren't very intelligent. Making it seem like Naruto is going to be stupid his whole life is just completely unrealistic.
Well, everyone calls Sasuke emo are more
often or not, or mock his character design. So
I think people are more annoyed by his
motivations than anything else.
I would think the most challenging battles for Naruto have been probably the fights he does on his own and when everything is on the line. The Chunin Exams, which very tiring, nothing was really on the line except Naruto's pride. However, Gaara was the first time Naruto had a solo battle against a villain that was really aiming to kill him, he didn't even really experience that with Haku, and Zabuza was not that serious because of Kakashi's presence. In a way, I would almost feel Naruto's first fight was more challenging for him because Sasuke had him so outclassed at the time, that Naruto needed to transform just to keep up with Sasuke's base state, much less Sasuke's Curse Mark Transformations. That was also the fight where Naruto really has been injured the most, having his entire chest pierced through a lung. At least Naruto's lose of arm, while permanent, wasn't fatal aside from his possible bleeding out. In Part II, I feel Naruto's battle with Deidara and Kakuzu was more "controlled" it wasn't as serious as his battle with Pain. After his battle with Pain, I would say Naruto lost battle with the Jinchuriki, Tobi, Gedo Statue, and Madara were probably the most challenging battle because it was so long and wide-spread, which his battle with Sasuke was more controlled and focused. However, I don't think it's a coincidence that the Itachi vs. Sasuke fight and the Pain vs. Naruto fight are so close together, because I feel they served very similar roles in developing the respective characters, and were of equal importance.
Don't overestimate the Rinnegan. We have no reason to believe Sasuke's Six Paths Chakra makes him that much more superior. Kurama eluded that the power Sasuke was showing was on par with Hagoromo, showing that Sasuke is using the extent of the Six Paths Chakra. However, you should know that most of Hagoromo's power came from his status as a Jinchuriki, not as a Rinnegan user. It was his power as a Jinchuriki, that made him like a god, and it was that power that Madara and Obito sought.
Sasuke mentioned that he couldn't use both at the same time because they were of opposite nature, and Yin Kurama said the same thing to Naruto later on. Also, Madara revealed in the fight with the Five Kage that his clones were destroyed by Ohnoki's Dust Release because they had Susano'o active, so they couldn't absorb the Dust Release in time. The Preta Path also seems to be able to absorb about one technique at a time, hence why Madara was caught between absorbing Mei and A's collaboration technique or Gaara's Sand Coffin. That was why Madara's released his Susano'o, so he could free him from both at the same time.
The translation I saw said that Naruto's Six Paths Sage Mode is present in the movie, but won't be shown because it gets "stolen". I just presumed that the mass of chakra that gets taken from Naruto was this "theft" that was eluded to. Hence, why Naruto had to resort to his Tailed Beast Sage Mode after. I just think it is interesting because the Six Paths Sage Mode was what made Naruto stronger than Ten-Tails' Jinchuriki Madara, but Kishimoto said that Toneri Otsutsuki is stronger than Ten-Tails' Jinchuriki Madara when he has the Tenseigan and the Tenseigan Chakra Mode. This to me shows that even without the Six Paths Sage Mode and the other Tailed Beasts, Naruto is now stronger than Ten-Tails' Jinchuriki Madara even when he is just using the Tailed Beast Sage Mode. Which is pretty big. I would presume that the Tailed Beasts recover just like Kurama, they just fall asleep until their chakra recovers, but since it's only a portion, this can happen easily.
Sasuke's Susano'o is the manifestation of Sasuke's chakra, it's not a seperate entity like a Tailed Beast or the Gedo Statue. Assuming that Sasuke's Susano'o could mutate is like saying Sasuke's very chakra was mutated, but that only happens if someone assimilates the chakra, but this just looks like Sasuke merged the chakra with the form using the Rinnegan and Chibaku Tensei.
Again you presume that Sasuke used Preta Path, but that is impossible, as Madara has alone has confirmed the jutsu are impossible to perform together, one needs to release a ninjutsu to absorb ninjutsu, because one needs to absorb the chakra and spin it in their body. Also, if the chakra was absorbed with Preta Path, it does not change it's make-up, rather it is broken down and converted into regular chakra, just like any other chakra absorption jutsu. The only exception is that the chakra is mixed in form temporarily in the user, so nature energy can affect a person who isn't skilled enough to control it. Hence why Preta Path of Pain was turned into a Stone Frog.
Yeah, but once the plot is over, most people will stopping watching the anime. SP may plan to continue the anime, but that doesn't mean it will sell. Unless the filler arcs are like Chikara, I seriously doubt anyone will care. By the same token, SP may be attempting to stretch the story out since the fans already know the ending, in an attempt to maximize profits, but at the same time, it's easy to just check out of the anime until the studio decides to resume canon storyline. Hopefully they would, I'd rather see extended non-canon canon content then constant filler.
Game of Thrones is a good book, because you aren't constantly destracted by the acting going on in the show. The show is trying to hard to make it a big drama, but it isn't really, the books are more like a comic book, where action take place and then you move on. Also, a lot of the more interesting characters have yet to be introduced in the show that are in the books, including a new King for the War of the Five Kings, that will take the place of the two Kings who are already dead. I just wish their were more characters who weren't either fat/creepy backstabbers, stupid soldiers, or insane rapists. A good fighter with a noble character is really needed among the Lords, and I have high hopes for Harry the heir, especially since it's completely obvious Petyr is going to kill Robert Aryn to make Harry the new Warden of the East.
That being said, you really should be watching DBZ, I'd much rather talk about that. You should do it fast too, because I feel there is a lot we could discuss.
Kakashi's character could have been much better if they showed more of his "thousands of jutsu", just one chapter of him going HAM with the Third Division would have been amazing. Instead, we get fan-baited with his popular Lightning Blade over and over again, which makes the jutsu lose it's magic. I've felt Kakashi is really developing into a modern day Hiruzen; intelligent, thousands of jutsu, every chakra nature, and the sensei of the current Three-Way Deadlock. Of course, lets be honest, Sakura really isn't equal. At any rate, I actually liked Kakashi losing the Sharingan, because it expands his character. Ever since Kakashi's introduction, it's always been about Sharingan. I think Kakashi losing the Sharingan and become Sixth Hokage does really do his character justice, but at the same time, it wasn't really necessary. I still maintain that Kakashi's promotion seemed "forced" just because some wanted it to happen, when their was never a good excuse for why Tsunade retired. Of course, I have this problem with Ay and Mei Terumi as well. I've just always felt that the more Hokage/Kage would need the worse it looks overall. Think of it, most of the villages are only on their Fourth or Fifth Kage, and now Konoha is on their Seventh, it just doesn't sound like the position is as stable, or rather, that the leaders are all that serious about their role.
I addressed the first post you sent me after the last one I responded to. I'll go over this new post and answer the questions I didn't touch on.
I'll be stopping by the Kaguya discussion in a little bit.
Well, to tell you the truth, the TnJ of Nagato didn't seem as forced as the one with Obito, Obito's was almost blind-sided. What I was saying was that I was thinking Nagato would need to be exhausted on his back, kind of like how Obito was after the beasts were extracted in order for him to listen to Naruto. Also, Nagato's character was really hyped up before the fight began, everyone was looking forward to that fight, even some more than Sasuke vs. Itachi.
Well, you could say that actions really talk better than words. For all of Obito's words, he talked more than fought, and he didn't even fight well. If you think about it, Obito didn't kill a single person when he became the Jinchuriki, the worse he did was remove Minato's left arm. Also, Obito wasn't really all of that threatening before transforming, because he had almost just been using Kamui. Madara on the other hand felt much more dangerous, mostly because he pretty much KO'd the entire Fourth Division solo. So many of us were even doubting Madara would even become the Ten-Tails' Jinchuriki because it seemed like it was just way too OP.
I've told you multiple times I don't really keep lists or favorites, especially in the last year. I maybe think when Naruto gained the Six Paths Sage Mode was a very good point, but I just kind of wish it was designed a bit better, it just seemed a little too simple, and not as interesting as the Tailed Beast Mode.
Seeing something like that would have been interesting, I definitely feel like a build-up might make the fight a bit more organic, except this kind of defeats what I feel is really needed to beat Naruto, especially since it was part of Sasuke's strategy.
Well, I feel like Naruto vs. Sasuke would have done more damage had the fight happened on the ground, but remember, the biggest clash of the entire fight happened in the air, causing the damage to be lessened. If you think about it, since the status were destroyed but the foundation was still there, it didn't push the Valley any further down like what Shinsu Senju did, but at the same time it blew all of the water in the valley out and destroyed both of the statues. Not to mention the shockwave could be felt supposedly in the Land of Frost/Land of Lightning when it happened at the border of the Land of Sound and the Land of Fire, meaning it practically went over two whole countries.
I sort of felt like a big shot of all of the Hokage with Naruto in the middle would have been the best, or like the four dead Hokage like spirts at his side. The hat would have also been a nice touch, shown from the front with maybe a grin on his face. Also, if he was overlooking the village, making the entire village present like it was his crowning ceremony would have been cool, especially since we were cheated out of it at the end of the series.
I really don't think the CoP part really detracts from the series, because Naruto never let it decided his actions. It's not that Naruto doesn't believe in destiny, but rather, he believes he shapes it not is a victim of it. That is something that the dubbed didn't quite translate over. He told Neji that fate isn't something for someone else other than that own person to decide. He also was angry because Neji "presumed" to know Naruto's destiny, when obviously Neji had no idea. Naruto also said that for all of his talk, Neji didn't really believe in it either, hence why he was fighting against the Main House. Naruto believed that no one but himself decided his fate, by that same token, Naruto's CoP statement would have only have worked because of Naruto's own personal decisions. Most of these decisions are part of his own character. Naruto was the Child of Prophecy because of who he was, not because he was chosen. Hagoromo and Gamamaru foretold Naruto's coming, but they had no affect on his development, and everyone who had anything to do with Naruto didn't know either, it was only because Naruto's character developed did it all happen to come to pass. Recall, the Child of Propechy could either destroy or save the world depending on his "choice". I believe this choice was when Naruto decided to not turn on Alliance and join Obito and Madara when offered.
People have this same problem when talking about the existence of God. They question how can anyone have free will if God knows everything that you do and will do. But, that is what makes it free will, you see, by not controlling your actions, you are still free to make your own mistakes, even if someone knows you are going to do it. That's what makes it free will. Free will is not the same as being unpredictable, free will means you do what you want because you want to. It's the only way we learn as human beings, and hence, why we are allowed to do so, because it teaches us as imperfect beings. Naruto became the CoP not because he was prophecised to be it, but, because in truth, Naruto "wanted to be the CoP". Naruto wanted to be the savior, and so as a result, he shaped his character to fit it. Just like how Naruto refused to kill Nagato because of Jiraiya's book, Naruto felt if he did kill Nagato and gave up, he wouldn't be the "Naruto" he was named after that his parents wanted him to be. Naruto has had multiple chances to follow a different course, but, in fact, Naruto has chosen every step of the way what kind of person he wants to be. I don't know how it could be anymore free than that.
Just so you know, some personal stuff has taken up my time all day and I can't get back to you yet. I'll work on a reply over the course of the week when I have the free time (I'll be doing the Kaguya one first, as that interests me the most).
So far, I think the best way to do these is to work on responses over the week and then have them ready for discussion on the weekend when we have the most free time. Does that sound good to you?
That's fine. Also, if we want this wall to not get too many message, you shouldn't leave more messages unless they add to the discussion. You don't need to update me, just answer them when you can. It just ends up wasting space here.
Hey Omega- sorry I haven't been on here lately. Chalk it up to school, work, the weather (snow), and Game of Thrones.
I agree that I won't update you on this message anymore (I'll use the requests), but this is an exception, as I have something to add to our discussion at the end of this message. I'll have a response to the Otsutsuki blog within the next few days and the response to this message either Friday or Saturday.
2. Over on Narutopedia, I went more in-depth about how the anime can improve upon Naruto and Sasuke's final battle. I am going to post my ideas on here as well. Can you please tell me what you think of them, and if you think these are legitimate ideas? Also, can you tell me if any of them seem unlikely? Finally, after reading my full ideas, can you please let me know if you think I am expecting too much/if you think I will be disappointed by the outcome? Here are the ideas:
I. Animation: First of all, I do think it's likely that at least one of the episodes will be animated in the standard animation. However, I'm hoping that the majority of the episodes will be animated with quality similar to that of the Chikara Filler Arc and The Last: Naruto the Movie. Furthermore, I don't know too many animators, but there is one that I am aware of that must animate a portion of this fight: Hiroyuki Yamashita. Some of his work includes nearly all of Sasuke's high quality animation fights, Madara vs. the Shinobi Alliance in #322, Obito vs. the Rain Shinobi in #345, and Kakashi vs. Obito in #375. If I had to pick a certain section for him to animate, I would choose chapter #697, where Naruto and Sasuke fight with taijutsu (that is his specialty).
II. Length: While two or three episodes may allow for the fight to be animated to perfection, those are still not enough episodes for this fight. I'm hoping for at least four episodes, with five or six being the perfect length, but seven or more is probably the point where it is getting to be a bit too much.
III. Additional/Filler Content: There are a lot of opportunities in which this fight can be extended in the anime. In fact, I have analyzed the chapters of the battle to the point where I have thought about what should be added in each place. Therefore, allow me to break this down chapter by chapter, where I will explain what could be added in each moment of the fight.
1. Chapter #695-
The fight can be extended right from the very first page of this chapter. Instead of repelling against each other and Sasuke firing the fireball (which would happen later on in the episode), this allows for the perfect chance of a taijutsu scene. However, unlike chapter 697, they are not exhausted quite yet, so their guard would be up as opposed to each punch landing like in the chapter. Basically, this scene would play out very similar to Kakashi vs. Obito, with a lot of fast-moving punches, blocks, and counter attacks. During this battle scene, it would also be refreshing to see them use kunai knives and shuriken to battle with.
This battle sequence would also allow for them to use some more of their signature moves in a variety of ways, with Naruto using his Shadow Clones, Rasengan/Rasenshuriken variants, and Tailed Beast skills, while Sasuke would use Fire/Lightning Release techniques, his EMS powers (Susanoo, Amaterasu, etc), and some of his Rinnegan's known abilities.
Naruto could also use the powers of all the other Tailed Beasts and Sasuke could use techniques from the Six Paths Technique (Shinra/Chibaku Tensei, Preta Path, etc). However, these abilities weren't in the manga, so the anime may not feel comfortable adding these techniques without Kishimoto's consent. Do you think it's possible we may see these abilities?
One of the things that were missing from this fight is an element that usually appears in every fight where Naruto is taking on an opponent alone- there was no scene where Naruto created an army of hundreds of clones. The anime should add a sequence where Naruto creates hundreds of clones and Sasuke has to take them out in strategic manners (taijutsu, Chidori Stream, Amaterasu, Susanoo, etc).
As far as the location of this extended sequence, it would start out on top of Hashirama's statue and then work it's way down to the lake on top of this waterfall. It may also be possible for them to end up fighting on the shore/in the forest of the upper lake. Eventually, circumstances would lead to them returning to the top of the statue so that Sasuke can launch his fireball attack and Naruto could enter Six Paths Sage Mode.
When they activate their chakra avatars, the anime team could come up with clever ways of extending this section before their clash leads them to the atmosphere.
2. Chapter #696-
Believe it or not, extending the sequence of Naruto and Sasuke talking would be beneficial to the battle.
Before Sasuke absorbs the chakra of the Tailed Beasts, they can find interesting ways to make their avatars battle in the sky.
After Sasuke absorbs the chakra, they can extend the battle between Naruto's clones and Sasuke's enhanced Susanoo. It would also be possible for Naruto to create hundreds of clones to attack a large target such as Sasuke.
After Naruto combines his clones into the three-headed Tailed Beast/Asura Mode, they need to extend the battle between Naruto in that mode and Sasuke in the Tailed Beast Susanoo, as that is clearly when they were at their strongest.
3. Chapter #697-
Before fighting with basic taijutsu, it is possible to still allow them to use basic ninjutsu (Rasengans/Chidoris, Clones/Amaterasu, etc) before completely running out of chakra. For instance, it would be possible to have that hundreds of clones vs. Sasuke sequence at this stage in the battle instead.
The two-page spread of Naruto and Sasuke battling with taijutsu all day allows for the anime to literally animate this taijutsu sequence for an entire episode(s), so there's really not much else to add here since the anime can do so much with those two pages.
4. Chapter #698-
This is actually the perfect place to end the battle. There could be more sequences added here, but it's really not necessary.
Please keep in mind that there is also many more opportunities to add filler content than what I have already suggested. What I have thought of is just a few basic concepts to add it, and I'm hoping that they do even more than I have already suggested.
Also, adding to what I posted in the previous message- what would you rank Naruto and Sasuke's final battle out of a score of 10 (in the manga)? Furthermore, what would the anime have to do make you give it a 10/10? Finally, even though you pretty much said what you want the anime to do, can you give me some feedback on the ideas I posted above (since they go more in-depth than the previous discussion)?
I'll have a response to the Otsutsuki tonight and a response to all of this tomorrow.
Alright, finally here's my response. I'll be going to spend the weekend at my grandfather's (he's on hospice) with no internet connection, so I don't know when I'll be on here again. If you could just have a response by some time next weekend, that would be awesome.
Before I start responding, I'd like to add one more thing for you to ponder besides my in-depth "analysis" on how the anime could extend the battle. I forget about how many episodes you said you think the anime will extend the battle, but I believe it was something between five to seven episodes. In the past of the Naruto Shippuden anime, they used to extend many sequences of the battles in this series. However, recently, they really haven't been extending the battles in the anime. So in that sense, what is it about this fight that makes you think they would take the time to extend it?
It has been a very long time, and after so many conversations I've had on here, I'm bound to forget a lot. If you have the time, can you give a brief summary of what you wrote back then?
It's all human nature. I've openly admitted that I do the same thing with Sasuke, but I still do acknowledge his flaws (which I will go a lot more in-depth with this summer).
Despite him not being in the series as long as others, Madara is actually one of the best written and philosophically deep characters in the entire series. Even though it was not by the best means, Madara truly did want to create a peaceful world. Everything else, like gaining access to the Chakra Fruit via connecting everyone together, was just an added bonus. From looking all around the community, it seems like a lot of people never understood what Madara was trying to accomplish. Though to be fair, there are many ways to interpret his actions, so I can usually see where they are coming from. What do you think was Madara's prime objective- creating peace with the Infinite Tsukuyomi, or gaining absolute power? What was Madara's key goal in your eyes?
That's what a lot of people have a problem with when it comes to Naruto. A lot of people don't like how it seems like he will always be a simpleton for the rest of his life. I honestly don't have a problem with it, as Naruto is actually an incredibly brilliant person- not only is he good at understanding serious situations (except when he used the Sexy Jutsu on the most powerful person in the world), but he also a great battle strategist. Everything else about his character that makes him look stupid is just a ploy to keep Naruto grounded and connected to his younger self so he doesn't become a completely different character. If anything, Naruto's biggest personality flaw is that he is way too overly-idealistic, and there weren't enough people who put him in his place.
That's always been the dumbest arguments for people who hate Sasuke- too many people make claims without thinking about what it would be like to experience what he's gone through.
I pretty much have the same opinion about Naruto's greatest battles. In Part I, there weren't so many times where there was much to lose, with the exception of his fight with Sasuke. Part II is where the stakes were really amped up. Morally, I think his battle with Pain was the greatest because that is where so many of his ideals were challenged and this was where the character of Naruto Uzumaki began to change. The final battle of the War was more challenging in terms of the actual battle, as he was facing much more stronger opponents and it went on for so long. However, as I said before, the most challenging battle for both Naruto and Sasuke was their final battle in the Valley of the End because this was a fight that they had been leading up to for their whole lives. The stakes were the highest of any other battle in the series, they were practically evenly matched for the entirety of the battle, and it ended with very important repercussions for both of their characters- both physically and mentally.
Don't underestimate the Rinnegan. Hagoromo was already one of the most powerful people in history before becoming the Ten-Tails Jinchuriki. That power only furthered his godly status. Again, we really can't say how much more powerful Sasuke would have been if his Rinnegan was at full potential. Based on the circumstances, I think it's obvious that this Rinnegan is more powerful than the standard Rinnegan. I'm willing to bet that there is something more to this version of the Rinnegan than the added ability of shifting spaces with objects. Immediately after receiving it, Sasuke was able to perform godly feats that possibly surpass both Nagato and Madara's Rinnegan. After learning more about how to use it, Sasuke would absolutely be a more powerful foe.
I've seen the movie, so a few things. The first one is that they never mentioned that Naruto couldn't activate Six Paths Sage Mode because Toneri stole the chakra required to use the technique. I'm pretty sure that was just an explanation the fans came up with to explain why Naruto wasn't using it- that makes sense, but it was never explicitly mentioned in the film. The other is that Kishimoto said that Toneri is stronger than Madara; not Ten-Tails Jinchuriki Madara. That means Naruto is strong enough to stay on par with/beat the basic Madara who managed to defeat the Five Kage. But even then, I thought was was obvious for a long time- by this point in the story, both Naruto and Sasuke would be able to take on a basic Madara, but it is arguable to say that they could beat a Ten-Tails Jinchuriki Madara alone. But anyways, after seeing the film, I do think it is very debateable to say that Toneri is even stronger than the basic Madara- just by looking at the feats he displayed, while he is stronger than most, I'm not positive that he could beat Madara. He definitely is not even close to a Ten-Tails Jinchuriki Madara, though.
Since it's been awhile, allow me to ask- what did I say when I was talking about Sasuke using the Preta Path? I believe it was when I was talking about Sasuke absorbing the Tailed Beast chakra. If it wasn't the Preta Path, then what was it? Also, I'm not too sure if that logic is correct. Nagato has shown on multiple occasions that he can use other techniques while using the Preta Path. However, by your analysis, that would be impossible. However, that's exactly what Nagato was doing when he battled against Naruto, Bee, and Itachi. Therefore, there is no reason why Sasuke wouldn't be able to use the Preta Path to absorb the chakra of the Tailed Beasts and implement them to his Perfect Susanoo. However, I do think this entire sequence was a bit screwy to begin with. Kurama explained that Sasuke was using his Susanoo as a conduit for the Gedo Statue when he absorbed the Tailed Beast chakra, but if you really think about that, it makes little to no sense.
It's all about the money with SP. They will suck this series dry until people stop watching the filler content. I imagine that it will play out similar to the end of Part I, where they may provide filler to fill in the gap between 699 and 700. Then after the miniseries is done, they will animate 700 and the miniseries, and maybe continue animating filler content with the new children. Honestly, I'm not too happy about something like that, as that may mean we will have to wait a long time to see the ending of the series animated. If they want to animate filler, that's fine, but finish the main story before doing filler, and then they can do flashback arcs if they so desire.
I don't know a lot of what you just said about the books, but I finished catching up to the series, and now it's one of my favorite shows- can't wait for next season. However, now I am very curious to read the books, and so I will probably read them very soon.
I'll be getting to DBZ as soon as possible- hard to fit another thing in my schedule right now. Hopefully I'll watch it by the summer so we have a lot of time to talk about it.
Yeah, there were a lot more opporunities for Kakashi to show off all the techniques he learned. However, I do love the Lighting Blade, and so I've never complained when seeing it (although now he can't use it anymore, so maybe he will use more of those 1000 techniques in the future). Kakashi losing the Sharingan is good for his character, but I do almost feel like now it makes his claim to the title of Hokage almost unbelievable because he lost so much of what made him a ferocious shinobi. Still, even without it, he is one of the most powerful shinobi of Konoha, so it's all fine and dandy. BTW, I really like the Hiruzen connection- never thought of it like that. Also, Kishi revealed that the reason Tsunade retired was because she just "didn't want to be the Hokage anymore", and wanted to live the rest of her life having "fun." Tbh, that makes her character look really bad in my eyes. I get wanting to have fun at a later point in life, but it just makes her look like a horrible leader.
I think both instances of TnJ made sense for the story- both for Nagato and for Obito. Though tbh, after seeing how it was all built up, I do think TnJ worked better for Obito's character than for Nagato. The problem with Nagato is that he was truly trying to find a way to achieve peace, and Naruto basically just strolls in and says he doesn't have a plan, but he will in the future. Even though Nagato's plan was horrible, it was still more than Naruto had. Basically, it didn't make sense that Nagato would be swayed so easily by Naruto's words. This is almost the same problem I had at the end of Naruto and Sasuke's fight as well because Naruto still didn't have an answer of how he would achieve peace, but the only reason this worked is because the whole series revolved around Naruto's relationship with Sasuke, so Naruto being able to change Sasuke made sense because of their friendship. However, it was different with Nagato because they weren't friends, Nagato had done so much bad, and Nagato was initially very persistent with his plans of creating peace through absolute rule.
Exactly. That was my whole point with Obito as the Jinchuriki. Though first of all, I do think it is debateble to say that Obito was at least responsible for many deaths when he revived the Shinju and it absorbed all of their chakra. Again, Obito was a defensive fighter- he rarely attacked, and when he did, he always failed in landing a decisive blow. That's why I think even the Kaguya fight was better than this one, because at least she was putting up a better fight than Obito was. Furthermore, there were also a lot of complaints that Madara was also disappointing as the Ten-Tails Jinchuriki. How do you feel about that?
Something just came up, and I have to go- I'll respond to everything else possibly a little later tonight. If not though, there's enough here for you to take care of.
Naruto gaining the Six Paths Sage Mode was definitely one of the best moments of the year. I actually liked how it was initially designed, though I do feel like some of the detail that was in 673 was lost in later chapters and it looked pretty basic. Since it doesn't have Naruto's full body glowing like his other modes, I'm curious to see how it looks in the anime. But anyways, I consider 2014 to be one of the best years of the manga throughout it's 15-year run. Do you feel similar at all, or did the manga not impress you as much in 2014 as it did me?
Glad to know you like those videos. Do you think that is something similar to what the anime might do at the beginning of the fight, or is that nothing more than fans hoping for something they won't get? Also, what do you feel was really needed to beat Naruto, how does those clips defeat that purpose, and how does that fit into Sasuke's strategy?
I think the damage to the landscape will be larger in the anime if they fight on the ground longer before they take to the sky (which is what the anime should do). I can see much of the surrounding forest of the Valley being destroyed. However, for what it was, they really did do a lot of damage. Not only did they completely destroy the statues (with just a basic Rasengan-Chidori clash, which truly shows just how powerful they are now), but the fact that the lake is no longer there is a big change. After all, if you remember from the first fight, it was extremely deep to the point where it seemed almost bottomless. Besides that, they're fight did leave more damage across the world as opposed to a single location like Hashirama/Madara. Based on the drawings, it looked like the lightning streaks that rained down were enough to destroy a few miles of an entire forest. So in a sense, when you really look at it all together, I do think their fight left more damage on the world.
When I was writing that, I thought of another interesting question- at the time of their battle, do you think Naruto and Sasuke have surpassed their predecessors (Hashirama and Madara) in strength? I have a whole reasoning that I'll write later, but by now, I personally believe Naruto has surpassed Hashirama/Madara, and Sasuke has surpassed Madara/Hashirama.
Are you talking about the Volume 72 cover? If so, those are much better ideas. I would have liked to see it look at Naruto standing on the Hokage Building in front of the monument with the hat on. It looks much better than us just seeing his back. It could have also been cool to just see Naruto standing on his own head on the monument. In fact, it could have been either the young Part I Naruto standing on the head alone, or it could have shown all of Naruto throughout the series standing next to each other, starting with Part I and ending with Hokage Naruto.
I still see the whole Naruto as the CoP a bit problematic because of how the series developed over the course of the 15 years, but I actually tend to look at it similarly to how you explained it. Like you, I believe Naruto only became the CoP because of how he developed when he was younger. Had he either not put in the work to be noticed or had he turned against the village like he told Sasuke, he might not have been the CoP. Or, on the other hand, he could have been the one, but he would have destroyed the world- not save it. However, a lot of people still have a problem with this. I think one of the biggest problems people had was when Hagoromo said that the child was a boy with blonde hair and blue eyes- that basically means that it was always meant to be Naruto, as who else would that have been. But once again, so many people have a problem with this. Here is one of the best arguments I've ever seen based on this whole debacle. Now, based on this whole issue, I have a few branching questions that are open for discussion. Basically, how do you respond to people like in the video above? Also, do you like that Naruto was the CoP, or would you have never included it if it was your story? Finally, many people believe this to be one of the worst, if not the worst, elements of the entire story- excluding Kaguya (because I know that's what you would say), what do you think is the biggest misstep in the story; what is the worst part of the story for you (despite the fact that this is my favorite series, there are flaws that must be addressed- I will do so after you respond)?
I. Animation: Most of the biggest fights have been animated by the best animators, because SP knows how important the fight scenes are. Of course, like I've said in the past, the long the fight is, the less likely all of the animation is going to be all on par.
II. Length/Additional/Filler: The length is also going to rely on the filler, realistically, the fight can be filler near the beginning, and maybe have additional filler in between the "24 hours" Naruto and Sasuke are fighting. The other points you mentioned would be nice to see additional filler, but really, as long as it doesn't distract from the fight, I'm fine with whatever.
Well, I can't predict filler, so you never know. I suspect 3 to 4 episodes, depending on flashbacks. Remember, Naruto's first fight with Sasuke had quite a bit of flashbacks and some fight filler, but it didn't distract from the fight, which was good.
Well I was explaining the chakra cycle. Naruto and Kurama each have their own chakra supply, which they can transfer between the two of them. Naruto starts off with his own inhuman amounts of chakra, which are Tailed Beast-level in their own right, this chakra supply could have been further enhanced with Sage Mode to make his regular state even stronger. The only fall back was that Naruto becomes tired after using it, either requiring rest or needing to re-enter Sage Mode to get a pick-me-up. However, Naruto also has complete and utter access to Kurama's chakra, which since our last conversation on the subject has become the completely Nine-Tails' Chakra, Yin and Yang. Naruto can use this to enter a Nine-Tails' Chakra Mode by shelving his own chakra. Originally Naruto risked losing chakra to Kurama during this stage, but Kurama ceased doing so at the beginning of the war, meaning the form has no drawbacks. It is unclear whether Naruto can enter Sage Mode in Nine-Tails' Chakra Mode, as Naruto only attempts it in Tailed Beast Mode. Now, Kurama can do one of three things. It can re-fill Naruto's own chakra supply, restoring Naruto's own stamina and allow Naruto to keep fighting constantly, it can re-fuel Naruto's own Nine-Tails' Chakra, allowing Naruto to constantly enter Nine-Tails' Chakra Mode, or it can merge its chakra with Naruto's to create a Tailed Beast Mode. While Naruto and Kurama are in Tailed Beast Mode, Kurama can't gather chakra, otherwise, Kurama can just gather chakra constantly when not in battle, seemingly without limit as long as it doesn't fall asleep. So this sort of gives you and idea of how the cycle works, Kurama acts as a chakra generator in almost any sense of the word, as long as Naruto isn't injured during his batttles, Kurama can just constantly re-fuel his chakra over and over again, making him virtually unstoppable. Whats more, is that Naruto can make himself even stronger, he can add Sage Mode to his Tailed Beast Mode, making a sort of Tailed Beast Sage Mode, making his attacks that much more powerful. Thanks to Hagoromo, Naruto unlocked the Six Paths Sage Mode, meaning Naruto can use the chakra of the other Tailed Beasts and not just Kurama's. This was another game changer, because Naruto's strongest form allows him to still gather chakra even while fighting, because while some beasts help with techniques, the others can gather chakra. Kurama at this stage can also gather nature energy for the senjutsu of this form. Meaning that, with the cycle explained above, as long as Naruto doesn't use the chakra faster than the beasts can make it, he literally can't run out of chakra. In order to overcome Naruto, you need to produce almost just as much chakra, which can only be achieved by absorbing chakra from the Tailed Beasts. This is what I am talking about, Naruto blew most of his chakra fighting Kaguya, and then was challenged by Sasuke, who absorbed Tailed Beast Chakra to enhanced himself beyond natural ends, and he still could only match a weakened Naruto. It doesn't matter how strong "you might become", because in fighting, all that matter is how strong you are now. Saying Naruto is stronger is not biased, because Naruto is without a doubt stronger, because Sasuke just can't compete. Imagine a normal persons chakra is like a puddle, an a Kage-level shinobi's is like a pond, Sasuke's is like a lake, but Naruto's is an ocean. The power difference of Naruto and just regular Kage-level shinobi is stupid, they don't compare at all. However, I feel Sasuke could still be defeated if there were enough Kage-level shinobi, because Sasuke does once again have a limited supply of chakra, even if it is incredibly massive. Naruto on the other hand could probably fight countless amounts of armies constantly without even getting tired, the overall stamina does not compare. Also, I don't think Kurama has lost it's ability to heal Naruto's wounds, just that the wound healing consumes chakra that could be used for battle. Even if lesser shinobi fought Naruto, I suspect any damage they'd do just be healed beceause of all the excess chakra Naruto has fighting regular shinobi. Also, there is still the possibilty Naruto has Hashirama's Healing Power and Wood Release, which would increase his healing factor even more. To the point you need to cause sever injury to Naruto for it to even matter, which, with his forms at his disposible, would be almost impossible, because Naruto's Nine-Tails' Chakra Mode alone can withstand Tenpenchii from the Ten-Tails, and Naruto only had minor injuries after it, which if he could heal his wounds would have disappeared. No shinobi is capable of Tenpenchii, except maybe Sasuke. This literally means that the other shinobi can't even kill Naruto even if they wanted to. You also can't blind or disable Naruto because his transformations are so fluid and the doesn't need eyesight to find you, unlike Sasuke. Overall, Naruto was indeed.
This was one of the most broken things about Naruto. He is so strong in the end of Naruto that no one could have stopped him from taking over the world if he wanted to. I mean, seriously, all he had to do was go to a village and simply blow it up, or pull a Ten-Tails and launched it from Konoha. Who is going to stop his attack? Nothing Sunagakure, Iwagakure, Kirigakure, or Kumogakure had could have stopped the attack if Naruto was really serious, because the Alliance can maybe stall one Tailed Beast Ball, but Naruto can launch dozens of them at once. I think the world heavily underestimates Naruto's strength, because even the last Five Kage Summit shows that they view him as an equal, even though he is anything but, and could probably kill them all with a sneeze and the only reason they have that relationship, is because Naruto wants it that way. In truth, even the Last doesn't give an accurate show of Naruto's strength, because he isn't even using his strongest form, and yet he still wrecks Toneri.
I do indeed find Madara's goals somewhat ambigious, but that is what I like the most. It's hard to tell whether he is psychotic like Obito or just bat-sh*t crazy, power-hungry. In truth, I think it's both. Because I feel Madara views his own limitations as what binds him to the cursed world, and if he can break them he can transcend his doomed destiny. Hence, the reason Madara is trying to become all powerful is not because he simply wants to give peace to the world, but because he wants to be so strong he can do anything. I feel this is because despite being so strong in life, Madara could never do what he really wanted to do, protect his brother and his clan. I thought if Madara continued as the villain, his plan to create a new world and new humans using the old world as fuel would have been revealed as his true plan. Using the power of Kaguya to create a new dimension, designed entirly in his image.
Yes, indeed the Rinnegan is incredibly powerful, but never forget who was it that was using those eyes. Hagoromo was not a regular Rinnegan-user, he was a natural one, both Madara and Sasuke are just trying to duplicate that. However, in truth, Hagoromo was also the Ten-Tails' Jinchuriki, which means that until he became it, he still had limits. This was shown when he even needed Hamura's help to seal the Ten-Tails in the first place. Hagoromo is not born a demi-god, he became one. He was beyond powerful because of his heritage, but even that would have not made him stronger than Naruto. It is the Ten-Tails that made him strong enough to do things like use Creation of All Things to create the beasts. It's actually quite ironic, the power that eliminated the Ten-Tails was the power of the Ten-Tails. Why do you think Madara and Obito were so desperate to get ahold of that power? Because it is the supreme strength, the only way for a Rinnegan-user to become stronger.
You should also know that Madara is stronger than Edo Tensei Madara, so the Madara Kishi was referring to was Post-Revival Madara, which was stronger than Edo Tensei Hashirama, not just stronger than the Five Kage.
I suspect it was the Chibaku Tensei. Sasuke was somehow absorbing the chakra off of the spheres while the Tailed Beasts were trapped in them. I'm not saying it wasn't charka absorption jutsu, just that is impossible for it to be Preta Path, because Preta Path's own nature makes it impossible to use with other techniques. Madara himself even stated that you can't use Susano'o and Preta Path at the same time, and Sasuke and Kurama later confirmed this and stated he can't use opposing techniques at the same time. This makes sense, because Preta Path uses absorbs ninjutsu and spins the chakra in the opposite direction, so if the chakra is being spun in the opposite direction, you can't have chakra run in the proper direction for techniques.
They just have to be careful not to drag it on too much, they tried the same thing with DBZ and it didn't go well.
Well, even though Madara didn't kill anyone was the Ten-Tails' Jinchuriki. It was how they fought him that I feel made him a better oppenent. I mean, just re-collect, this first real opponent was the Gate of Death Might Guy. Then, Naruto and Sasuke. Not to mention both Minato and Kakashi were trying to help just so Might Guy to land a hit on Madara. I just think the quality of the battles were better, even though Obito was fighting four Kage-level shinobi at the same time.
Well, it all blends in with me honestly, the plot has definitely gotten better at in the last two years. However, recall Kaguya appeared about mid-2014, so, to me at least, it was great around late-2013 to about early-2014.
Like I said before, in order to realitically beat Naruto, you need to go hard and fast. As long as Naruto and Sasuke aren't stalling too much, I think Sasuke's strategy from the manga will remain intact, if that was indeed his strategy to begin with.
I definitely feel Naruto and Sasuke have surpassed Hashirama and Madara, especially at that point in the latter two's life. Kakashi already said that Naruto had surpassed all Hokage, including Hashirama. Sasuke is also more powerful simply because Madara only has the EMS at their battle, and Sasuke had nine Tailed Beasts instead of just Kurama. Also, remember, when the damage really started getting going against Madara in the first battle, Hashirama was serious, but Naruto wasn't serious for the entire battle.
Hey Omega- three miscellaneous things to add to the discussion.
1. Today I was thinking about the size of Naruto's Tailed Beast Mode and Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo during their final battle. If you recall during the fight with Obito, Naruto's Tailed Beast Mode was the same size as Sasuke's Complete Susanoo with legs. Later, it was clearly obvious that Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo was much larger than his complete Susanoo. However, during their final battle, they were the same size- what do you make of that? I think the most logical explanation is that Naruto enhanced the size of his Tailed Beast Mode to compete with Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo.
2. In so many of the large fights, there are often clashes that create large explosions that engulf the landscape. However, most of the time they remain unscathed (except for the final fight, where they both lost their arms). How are the two combatants never completely incinerated as a result of these clashes? For example, they lost their arms, but the clash resulted in the destruction of the statues- how are they still alive?
3. Here is a link to all of the content that was released from Volume 72. Most of it is just special miscellaneous drawings. However, towards the bottom, you will see the changes/additions. Kishi redrew Sasuke's Tailed Beast Perfect Susanoo (I think this looks so much better). Next, you will see an extra page of Hinata waking up. Finally, you see the two "additional pages"- a two pages spread of Naruto and Sasuke making the seal and a close up of their faces. What do you think of these?
On the matter of the "additional pages", I'd be lying if I said I am not extremely disappointed. While the new drawings of Naruto and Sasuke look magnificent (can't say the same for the one extra panel of Hinata- that was an absolute waste), there were so many opportunities to do something worthwhile. For example, he could have added two more pages to the fight, added closure to characters who didn't get it at the end (like Orochimaru, Kabuto, and Taka), or just added something more to the ending as a whole. I wasn't expecting anything mind blowing from these two panels, but this was just a complete tease. There was no need for him to even mention it at Jump Festa. What do you think about this "additional content"?
1. Well, the scale of giant objects seems to be somewhat inconsistent at times. We really don't know how big Sasuke's Susano'o when he used it against Obito, however, since his Perfect Susano'o has Sasuke just in the jewel of the forehead and the Complete Susano'o was just the head, I suspect the Perfect Susano'o was much bigger in scope. Also, recall that Kurama's form was able to be wrapped around Madara's Perfect Susano'o when the later used Majetic Attire on it. I would suspect that Naruto can make the form as large as he wants, since it is just made out of pure chakra.Like I said, I think the size is controllable, and the size we saw at the final battle was it's largest size. Naruto perhaps was using a smaller form to fight Obito, because recall that when Naruto fought the other Tailed Beasts, his form was just as big.
2. Well, one of the silent features of Naruto is the durablity of the shinobi. Recall how large explosions could blow of arms and the shinobi wouldn't even react. Stamina increases physical durablity. For Madara, it increased to the point that he even barely felt pain anymore, even when his arm was ripped off. Also, most ninjutsu attacks focus a blast outwards. Recall in the first battle with Sasuke, Naruto and Sasuke's Rasengan-Chidori clash caused the large gap to form beneath them, and when the blast collapsed and rebounded then they were forced back with equal force. Much in the final battle, most of the explosion went outward, and Naruto and Sasuke only caught part of the damage that blew off their arms.
3. I agree, the Hinata awakening part is completely uncessary, as she already was shown awakening in that next panel. The release of Infinite Tsukuyomi with the close-up was interesting, but still, as waste. They should have saved the extra pages for near the end of 699 or in the beginning of 700, to slip the fate of more people in there.
What you brought up about the quality of animation to length ratio actually brings up a very interesting question: for you, what's more important about when this fight is animated- the fight being animated with stellar animation, or it being extended which may mean the animation may not be on point for certain scenes? For me, its actually a very difficult choice. However, if I had to pick one, I'd probably prefer it be longer than the entire thing being animated with the best quality. If the content from chapters 697/698 are animated with the best quality, that's what matters most; if the filler content is not animated with the best quality, then so be it- all that matters is that it's actually extended.
With what I mentioned in the previous post, is there anything I said that might distract from the original content? I was trying to think of scenarios that wouldn't mess up the flow of the original battle. Also, I think there is a lot of potential to extend the battle after they have their massive clash in the air and they return to the earth. Maybe the anime could make it so that they weren't completely out of chakra, and they could fight with some simple ninjutsu at that time instead of at the beginning. Still, if not, I would still love to see them extend that 24 hour period where they're fighting with pure taijutsu, as that's what is the most exciting in these types of battles in my opinion.
Finally, there is only one more thing I'd like to bring up revolving about when this fight is animated (it is getting to be a little too much, but I think we're pretty much covering all the bases at this point). When I've brought this up at other places to get some more clever ideas, I see a lot people expecting/hoping to see Naruto use techniques such as the Tailed Beast Rasenshurikens or Sasuke using Kirin. While I would love to see stuff like this (especially Kirin one final time), I don't know if the anime would go that far, since they are extremely large techniques that weren't in the actual fight; I really want to see something like this, but I don't think it will happen. But how about you- just how far do you think the anime would really go? What do you think is the limit?
Now that I think back after reading this post, I actually do remember reading that explanation. Once more, I applaud your analytical skills. I don't believe I ever asked this before, but when did you start thinking about this to such an insane degree that you can explain these concepts probably better than even Kishimoto can? Other than that, I apologize that I don't have much else to say as there's nothing really to debate, as it's all pretty much factual information. But I still have a few other things to say that are connected to this entire ordeal...
Overall, Naruto's strength level is absolutely ridiculous and there are a few problematic elements in the simple fact that he grew so much over the course of a few days. Naruto was no where near as strong as he was by the end of the War as he was at the beginning, and that was only over the course of a two day/night cycle (or three, depending on when you consider the War to have ended). However, it's not really such a problem of Naruto himself, but more of how Kishimoto wrote the character. I have no problem with how powerful Naruto is (kind of), but it probably would have been better if his power growth was extended over a longer period of time so that it may not have come off as somewhat of an asspull. In addition, while I don't have a problem with how powerful Naruto has become since he is the main protagonist, sometimes I do think it's a little much. As you pretty much explained in very great detail, there really isn't anyone who can stand up to Naruto at this point because of all the different factors. Though sometimes I wonder if this would result in Naruto losing some of his humanity. At what point do you become so powerful to the extent that you lose touch with everyone else? I almost feel like this is what happened with Kaguya, and that's why she basically has no personality/mentality whatsoever. Though at the same time, I also don't think it's necessarily an actual problem that Naruto would have to deal with because of his history. He's gone through so much in his life to the point where even obtaining this level of power wouldn't change him to the extent that Kaguya and even Madara changed after obtaining this kind of power. Besides Naruto, I don't think there are too many other characters that I can say the same thing for, especially for Sasuke. If the roles were reversed and Sasuke had the power that Naruto possesses, I could see him turning into someone very similar to Kaguya. That's what so much raw power does to a person- the only silver lining here that would be different is Naruto.
One thing I want to quickly address is that you said Naruto was in a weakened state after fighting Kaguya, and that's when he went to fight Sasuke. However, later you were saying that Naruto essentially has no limit to his power, which is almost a complete contradiction. Now, I feel like both of them were heavily weakened after fighting Kaguya, and they were no where near as strong as when they were first given the power ups from Hagoromo. So with that taken into account, how weakened do you think Naruto and Sasuke really were when they battled when compared to when they first obtained their new powers? In Naruto's case, his chakra level was definitely depleted a great deal by this time, but when compared to Sasuke, he still definitely had a lot more power since the Tailed Beasts were still able to mold more chakra for him to use later in the battle. As far as Sasuke goes, I think he was in a lot more of a weakened state than Naruto was, as he didn't have as much power to begin with when compared to Naruto because he didn't have the Tailed Beasts constantly supplying him with power. However, at the same time, I also don't think Sasuke was showing off his full power during the Kaguya fight due to the feats that he displayed in the battle with Naruto, but despite that fact, much of my argument still remains the same. Also regarding this battle, I have seen you explain countless times at how Naruto was matching Sasuke when he is weakened (though like I pointed out above, how weakened was Naruto during this battle), and I really can't disagree at all because your arguments are so well constructed. However, how do you reason Naruto and Sasuke literally ending up in the same conditions when Naruto was superior to Sasuke at the time of the battle? Not trying to prove any sort of point here, but more of just want to get your impression of this scenario.
Finally regarding this subject, what do you think would actually be necessary to defeat Naruto at this point? Who would be powerful enough to even stand a chance of taking Naruto on in battle, and how would he manage to weaken Naruto to the point where he would be beaten?
I agree that a mysterious character filled with ambiguity are usually the characters that attract my attention the most. If we're being honest, that's what I liked so much about Sasuke towards the end of the story because his true intentions were shrouded in mystery (and when they were revealed to be plans of revolution, I liked it even more). Like Sasuke, that's what made me appreciate Madara as a villain over other villains like Nagato, Obito, any of the Akatsuki, and Orochimaru (though I do love Orochimaru a lot as a villain- I consider him like The Joker of the Narutoverse, while Madara is like... well I don't know too many other Batman villains, so I'll just use one from the movies, so I'll say Madara is almost like Bane or Ra's al Ghul, with more of a grand and meticulous plan than Orochimaru/The Joker, who just wants chaous and destruction). I love the idea that Madara, with all his power, could never attain his true desires of protecting the ones he loved. Those are always the best elements of a tragic character, in the sense that they usually have so much divine power, but even with it, it has no effect on completing the character's dreams. Still, I never got the sense that Madara was really too power-hungry; it more or less seemed like he just wanted to attain this power as a means to an end to help him complete his dream of activating the Infinite Tsukuyomi. However, that wouldn't explain why he would connect everyone who the Shinju after they were already caught in the Infinite Tsukuyomi (unless using the God: Nativity of a World of Trees is a necessary part of making sure everyone is stuck within a dream world, but even then, I don't think it is). Finally, I remember talking to someone who thought that Madara's ultimate desire was to achieve ninshu by connecting everyone together- how do you feel about that? I suppose one could argue that Infinite Tsukuyomi could be interpreted as a form of ninshu, as it is connecting everyone together by utilizing chakra to do that. However, at the same time, everyone is experiencing something different since it is their own isolated dream, and so I don't necessarily think the claim that Madara's true goal was to unite everyone through ninshu is too accurate.
I beg to differ. It was stated in the manga that Hagoromo and Hamura obtained the power of Kaguya when they were born. It was for that reason that Hagoromo had powers like the Rinnegan, and Hamura had the Byakugan. Besides that, they also obtained her massive power that they were the only ones who had the power to stand up to the Ten-Tails. That alone already makes them superior to most of the shinobi that exist in the present day, and that was even before Hagoromo obtained the power of the Ten-Tails. But whatever the matter, I don't really remember how this pertains to talking about the Rinnegan...
Yeah, I was already aware that the living Madara was stronger than the Edo Tensei Madara- why was that necessary to bring up? Also, since you did bring it up, why exactly do you think that was? I never got the impression that the living Madara was stronger than the Edo Tensei Madara until after he became the Ten-Tails Jinchuriki.
I don't really understand how it could be the Chibaku Tensei, as that was never stated to be a factor of the technique ever. I think the fact that they were trapped in the technique just made it easier for Sasuke to absorb their power. BTW, despite what Madara stated about the Preta Path, that was already proven to be false- the Preta Path can be used while utilizing other techniques. Remember when Nagato used the Preta Path to absorb Naruto's Rasengan, while also using the Human Path to remove Naruto's sole and (I believe) the Animal Path to restrict Naruto's movement? That already completely contradicts Madara's statement that the Preta Path cannot be used in conjunction with other techniques. Now in Sasuke's case, I think the reason he couldn't do that is because his Rinnegan was new, and he didn't know how to completely use it yet- in fact, that fact was actually confirmed by Kurama in the official release of chapter 698. Again, had Sasuke had enough time to learn how to use the Rinnegan properly, he could have absorbed ninjutsu while also using other techniques at the same time.
I completely agree that the battles against Madara as the Jinchuriki easily stomp over any of the Obito Jinchuriki battles. However, did you ever get the feeling that Madara was being overwhelmed a little too easily? There were a few times where the Alliance got the better of Madara in a battle- the first was when Obito managed to steal some of the Tailed Beast chakra from Madara, the second was when Madara was heavily damaged by Might Guy (though it was the Eight Gates, so this was acceptable), and the third was when Naruto and Sasuke got a few good hits in on Madara (even though there was nothing they did that heavily damaged Madara to the point where he couldn't recover). And all though Madara definitely used a lot more offensive attacks than Obito (remember when he used the Sage Art: Yin Release Lightning Dispatch at the beginning of 674? Absolutely beautiful!), not too many of his attacks did much damage.
I definitely agree that late 2013 (Madara's revival) to mid 2014 when Kaguya was revived was absolutely amazing for the manga! Even though the Kaguya stuff definitely wasn't up to par, I instantly enjoyed everything else from her sealing (690) onward- did you feel the same way? And although there was a lot of bad in the Kaguya fight and we often talk so much about it, wasn't there anything you enjoyed in that part in the slightest? I actually have a few things, but I'll get into that later.
Again, what was his strategy that you are talking about? Are you referring to the multiple attacks he used in 695 when attacking Naruto? If you are, that's one of my favorite parts of that fight because there was actually real strategy being used because pretty much every technique he used was always a set up for the next one, and it wasn't clear what exactly Sasuke's real attack was until the end of that scene.
First of all, I believe Naruto was being serious, but just not to the extent where he was trying to kill Sasuke. I'd say Naruto was like one or two power levels away from displaying his true power because he didn't want to fatally injure Sasuke. However, back to the matter at hand, I thought of kind of an interesting topic of discussion: who do you believe are the strongest characters that have ever appeared throughout the entire series? And when I say this, I am counting at any point, so don't consider restrictions (so if you want to say Eight Gates Guy and PS Kakashi, go for it). Also, you are free to say whoever you want, but when I write my picks, I'll be excluding certain characters whose abilities we haven't seen to the extent where we can make an accurate judgement (such as Hamura, Asura, and Indra). You can pick as many as you want, but when I do mine, I'll probably only go as high as ten characters maximum. This isn't necessarily a list, since it's not really an opinion and pure factual, and you can decide however many characters you want to list. I'll write mine in another message, as this one's already getting pretty long.
Yeah, pretty much the same how I felt. Naruto's Tailed Beast Mode looks like it has the added benfit of expanding to any size he wants since it's pure chakra, unlike the rest of the Tailed Beast Modes that Jinchuriki use. I'm willing to bet it increases in size the more power Naruto has, and so him having chakra from all the Tailed Beasts explains why he was able to make it larger than before.
I was probably thinking about this too much. It's really just something that you have to accept with this series- there's really no logic to it.
I really wish they used the two extra panels for the chance to do something more beneficial to the story because, even though I did love the ending, it was still rushed as hell. Though it's not a lot, two pages could have done major improvements to the ending. For example, I think two pages would be enough to at least hint about the whereabouts of Orochimaru until he returns in the miniseries. The two panels look really good (it really shows just how great of an artist Kishimoto really is), but still definitely a waste and I'm pretty disappointed. Wasn't expecting anything too mind blowing, but at least more than what we got.
After writing such a long response, it made me think of an interesting question. Since my joining Naruto Answers, I have writtena lot. Since you've been here, how much do you think you've written? By now, I'm sure I've written thousands of words, maybe even going into the multiple 100,000s range.
Yes, the animation of the canon material is indeed crucial, but even lack luster animation of filler scenes can distract from the story. Recall the quick downgrade in animation quality from canon to filler material in the battle with Pain. Although that action in such scenes was good, the animation was still distracting, and so, lessens the experience.
Well, like I said before, part of the strategy of fighting Naruto is always keeping the pressure on. Lesser techniques and talking work to your disadvantage. Sasuke saw this and so he decided to "skip the warm-up". However, I would suspect the most likely place for filler that wouldn't distract from the canon would be during their 24 hour taijutsu fight. The fight was indeed mostly taijutsu at that point, because their Sasuke nor Naruto could even make a Chidori or Rasengan. They were just straight up punching and kicking each other.
Well, don't forget how crazy other battles can get on filler alone. Pain summoned a massive shockwave of water, and Naruto let our a barrage of chakra blasts. Not to mention there was that entire on water fight scene that wasn't in the manga either, with Pain dropped an entire massive boulder on Naruto.
Well, I usually go way overboard with anything I take an interest in, it's just part of my nature. I like being informed. To that end, incomplete knowledge of a topic of interest doesn't really suite me. I feel often you give Kishimoto too little credit, there is a unique formula to all of this. Logic builds. Even if Kishimoto can vocalize the basis for his story, which is actually rather odd because he in a writer, the ingrediants are there. Also, it's highly possible that Kishimoto's writing assistants lead to him not even knowing a lot of the storyline himself. I mean, it's possible he's not the true creator of absolutely all of the canon content.
Well, with Naruto's strength, you have to understand this power has been inside of him the entire series, occasionally popping up every once in a while. Naruto's powers were actually developed over quite a bit of time, they just jump around it a lot. There is probably quite a few days in between when he unlocked the Nine-Tails' Chakra Mode and when he set off for the war. At that point, Naruto had already mastered the chakra. This isn't surprising, since Naruto has his natural chakra manipulation ability from his father and was studying directly under a Perfect Jinchuriki. Naruto did become somewhat absorbed in his own power when his entered the war, believing he could stop it all on his own. However, this was where Itachi gave him an important reality check. He reminded Naruto that the only reason Naruto has gotten so powerful is because of the help he had received from his friends and teachers along the way. This results in Naruto not undervaluing or underappreciating the assistance of his allise, which is a crucial character trait. This is identical to Asura, who developed his powers and gained allies/followers this way. The truth is that Naruto doesn't seem himself as a perfect being, he knows he has weaknesses and faults, and his friends/allies make up for that. This can not be said so much for Sasuke though. Just like Naruto, Sasuke became drunk on his own power. Thinking he could take all of Konoha by himself, thinking he could easily beat Kabuto, underestimating the Ten-Tails, Obito, and Madara. That was why almost the stab in the chest was important for Sasuke, it was a reality check. However, Sasuke just got stronger. In the end, he believed he was completely untouchable and could control the world with war for an enternity. He even though someone as powerful as Naruto was beneath him, only to be proven wrong again. Naruto doesn't have the character trait. Recall when Sasuke demanded Kakashi and Sakura remove themselves from the fight because they had nothing to offer. Naruto defended them saying they still had skills they could contribute, even though Kakashi agreed that they could be of little help. Someone like Madara, Obito, or Sasuke, wouldn't let the weakness of others drag them down. This is a character of Indra, while the opposite was a chracter of Asura. Thus, it is also a trait Naruto and Hashirama have in common. Both Hashirama and Naruto will waste considerable effort and chakra protecting others, showing that, to them, protecting allies is more important sometimes than winning. In fact, I suspect that was the reason Hashirama died, he overerted himself probably protecting all of his new allies, and at the same time tried to not kill his enemies, resulting in him probably dying.
No, I stated there are still limits. If the Tailed Beast's overert themselves then they fall asleep, I feel after the battle with Kaguya, not only was Kurama and Naruto weakened, but all of the other Tailed Beasts were asleep, and Naruto used up the rest of their chakra they had given him to fight Sasuke. Naruto's chakra has no limits, only as long as it isn't overerted. Naruto was already at probably 11% of his total chakra potential because 8 out of the 9 beasts were probably asleep. However, we really don't know how much chakra Kurama makes in comparison to the other eight. Like I said before, the secret to beating Naruto is keeping the pressure on. If you attack him by yourself, you better be sure you have that kind of chakra. It would be better to fight Naruto in a group over extremely powerful shinobi that could tag out from time to time to still challenge Naruto and keep the pressure on. I say this mostly because even if Naruto fights someone of Sasuke's level, Naruto can still make chakra in the between via the other beasts. This didn't happen during his fight with Sasuke, because the other beasts were most likely asleep, meaning the chakra control assistance Kurama had to give limited the amount of chakra he could mix. Realitically, even the 24 hours taijutsu fight doesn't make a lot of sense, because that should have been more than enough time for Kurama to recharge Naruto's chakra and build up enough for at least a Tailed Beast Mode. The whole explanation I can give is that perhaps there is a limit to how much chakra Kurama can make before it falls asleep regardless. But, back to the point, the basis for Naruto's invincibility resides in the extremely unlikelihood that he would ever be challenged in this way ever again. That was my statement early on in the war. Naruto was at full strength at his beginning of his fight with Kaguya, and it took a fight with Kaguya and a Tailed Beast-enhanced Sasuke to finally drain all of his chakra. There is never going to be another instance where this happens. Kaguya is gone, and Sasuke just flat out can not beat Naruto on his own. It's not even a matter of him mastering his Rinnegan. Naruto now has both Yin and Yang Kurama, not to mention he probably has Wood Release and the Healing Power of Hashirama. Naruto also could completely master all of the Tailed Beast Skills and master the Flying Raijin Jutsu. No matter how you look at it, Naruto wins. However, even then, how often would Naruto and Sasuke even fight? As the saying goes, it's pointless to test the strength of a sword that stands at your side. Sasuke's strength in comparison to Naruto's isn't even an issue, because they to have reached an agreement. Even if the two fought again, it would never be the kind of serious fight it was before. Sure, they may spare and play around with each other, but Sasuke is Naruto's ally now, meaning he is not Naruto's enemy by any means. I'm talking Naruto's strength in comparison to everyone else. Most shinobi can only hope to reach the Five Kage's level of powre, but they are no where even remotely close to Naruto's level. Even legendary shinobi like Hashirama and Madara would fall short. In fact, there is probably less than a handful of Kage-level shinobi that could even challenge him, and even then I think they would either lose or can't fight him because they are already dead. That is why I feel Toneri was introduced, it was like a way for Hamura to fight Naruto despite the fact Hamura died hundreds of, nearly a thousand, years ago.
Sasuke's state is just really a non-starter. Even if he wasn't at his best, Sasuke still had much more of his power than Naruto did, especially if Sasuke was right about how weak Naruto was in comparison to Sasuke. Just look back at the battle with Kaguya. Unlike Naruto, Sasuke didn't waste nearly as much chakra on fight Kaguya. Especially since there was that massive break in between when Sasuke wasn't even in the battle at all. If this was post-Itachi battle Sasuke I might have understood Sasuke's display getting him tired. However, Sasuke's chakra supply is monstrous now, higher than I think any of shinobi except Naruto. In fact, his base chakra supply might actually be larger than Naruto's own natural supply. Also, like I said before, Sasuke's own condition is completely irrelevant, he was using the Tailed Beasts to increase his power beyond natural limits. Unless proven otherwise, I seriously doubt Sasuke mastering his Rinnegan and further will take him beyond this amplified level. So, since Sasuke never has the Tailed Beasts after this battle, he is by definition "weaker than he was in the fight" regardless of his physical condition or advance in skill. That is why I want him to use Sage Mode, because I believe it is the only way for him to really level the playing field in way shape or form.
Well aside from simply poisoning him, as Naruto isn't immune to poisons like Sasuke is. If I were to strategize a plan to fight Naruto, I would definitely say it should start with capturing and enslaving as many of the Tailed Beasts as a could. However, since Naruto is connected to the Tailed Beasts, he most likely would come and find you. So, time is definitely the first factor, you need capture the Tailed Beasts without Naruto noticing. I would say after that you need a plan to drain as much of Naruto's chakra as possible, to put to sleep as many of the Tailed Beasts as possible. Hopefully you can weaken Naruto enough to get him down to his Tailed Beast Sage Mode. I which point, you need enough chakra or manpower to make Naruto lose his transformation and result to at least Nine-Tails' Chakra Mode. At which point, I think Naruto would be very much defeatable, but only if you act in this window. There can be no half-assing or talking, you have to keep the pressure on and kill him before Kurama can build Naruto's chakra back-up. In short, you need Mangekyo Sharingan-level chakra, a high-level chakra absorption technique, something similar to Toneri's jutsu, and an platoon/army of Kage-level shinobi who are informed and cautious of Naruto's abilities. At which point I think you could kill him. But like I said before, you will probably need the other beasts just to fight Naruto in his prime, because no one really has the natural abilities to do so.
Of couse, even this plan is laced with risks. First, if Naruto has developed the Wood Release, it doesn't matter if you use the other Tailed Beast. Naruto will just restrain them and maybe just absorb chakra directly from them. Secondly, unless you chakra absorption technique can balance senjutsu chakra, you are probably going to turn to stone because of all of the nature energy that is in Naruto's chakra. Lastly, this plan doesn't account for any jutsu Naruto might develop in the future that remained unseen. If Naruto has the Flying Raijin Jutsu, he could still avoid the Kage-level shinobi long enough to build back chakra. Not to mention if someone with Naruto's level of speed as the Flying Raijin, he's probably going to kill the entire platoon/army just with that. That was mostly what I was talking about with Justin. Four of the Five Kage is really not even remotely a challenge for him. In fact, now that I think about it, having the conference in Konoha is probably the safest place, because Naruto can't just blow it up, so it adds a level of security to the meeting place. Otherwise Naruto could probably just stap his fingers and kill everything in a 100 mile radius. Basically, that is why I feel like Shikamaru was there as an advisor, not as a bodyguard, because lets be honest, Naruto doesn't need a bodyguard, if anything, they would just be in his way in a real fight. Like I said at the very beginning of this, poisoning is really the best option, because unless you have a variable of improbable factors, you aren't overpowering him.
Actually, I was getting that vibe when he talked about the Chakra Fruit. It felt like Madara wanted to be "free of the chains of hated". He basically wanted to transcend this horrible world and become something more. Infinite Tsukuyomi was just a tool for this, allowing Madara to disguise his aims behind misplaced peace. After all, convincing his allies that Infinite Tsukuyomi needs to be activated BY HIM, is really the best thing Madara's ever done. Because Madara would be giving them exactly what they want, abeit turning them into White Zetsu in the end. Something that I'm sure was conviently left out. XD
I never got the feeling ninshu was Madara's goal. Madara talked so negatively about it, besides, if people are in Infinite Tsukuyomi, connecting their chakra is completely pointless. Their minds are trapped in an illusion world. If anything, it is an escape from reality. Although everyone is happy, they aren't living a real life. Which to some is a good enough trade off. However, the whole "turns you into White Zetsu" thing kind of makes me lead to the fact Madara wasn't planning on leaving these people alive at all.
I'll remind you, although Hagoromo and Hamura are born with power on the scale of Kaguya, it still isn't in her league. Kaguya was the strongest by far, that is something Hagoromo admitted to. However, Hagoromo became even stronger when he became the Ten-Tails' Jinchuriki, this is the point he really became more than human, and is most likely the reason he is still living as a chakra imprint, watching over the entire world, while Hamura is trapped in a temple as a non-physical ghost. The point was that no matter how strong dojutsu makes you, you are stronger as a Ten-Tails' Jinchuriki, or in Naruto's case, a Jinchuriki of all nine Tailed Beasts. To the statement that Sasuke can stand up to Naruto with just the Rinnegan is incredibly unlikely, unless Sasuke is also using Tailed Beast Chakra.
To tell you the truth, your response is coming so late I can't remember either. However, Hashirama himself stated that living Madara is Madara's "return to full power". This isn't surprising. The Edo Tensei is only able to capture a certain amount of a reanimated subjects full power. Hence why Hashirama and Tobirama were significantly weaker when they were first revived by Orochimaru in comparison to when they were revived the second time. Something Tobirama even mentioned that is a weakeness of the technique, that the better you get at it the more likely a strong subject is going to turn againt you. Hence, why Hashirama couldn't even be controlled, despite not even breaking the contract. Edo Tensei Hashirama and Madara fought on a level playing-field, but when Madara was revived Hashirama was almost immediately disabled, showing that the difference was in Madara's living state. Basically it was Hashirama>Madara>Edo Tensei Hashirama>Edo Tensei Madara.
Well I counter you logic with this. When as the Preta path ever absorbed chakra without direct contact or hitting a "barrier" made by the technique. Sasuke did neither when he drew chakra from the spheres. The chakra was just expelled from the spheres and went into Sasuke's Susano'o. It didn't looke like Preta Path at all.
Also, I conceed that Nagato used both Human Path and Preta Path at the same time. But Madara still stated that he reason his Wood Clones were destroyed by Ohnoki's Dust Release, was because they had Susano'o active, and could use Preta Path while Susano'o was active. So, Susano'o itself has been stated to be a technique that can't be used with Preta Path, which once again removes it from possiblity. My only explanation is that perhaps the Six Paths Technique's jutsu can be used at the same time, but are only limited to these jutsu. This still drastically lowers Sasuke's arsenal, especially since the only other techniques he had where the Deva Path.
Well, like I said, it was the quality of oppenent. Madara was caught off guard by Obito's betrayal, and that was just because Obito was fight in his face when it happened. The only reason Madara didn't kill Obito right there was because of Obito's Kamui. Also, I don't think it would have done the Eight Gates justice if Madara wasn't hurt at all, especially since of how long the Eight Gates have been around in the storyline. Besides, I think it was a good time to show how inhuman Madara had become.
I liked the way Kaguya was sealed, in fact, if I had to create a scene for Madara to be defeated, that would have been it.
Well, the strongest has to be Kaguya, she's not the most skilled, by even Hagoromo explained he wasn't a match for her. Had Madara gained her power I would have said him at the top, but otherwise Rikudou Naruto followed by Rinnegan Sasuke are above him, even as a Ten-Tails' Jinchuriki in my opinion. Ten-Tails Hagoromo is right behind Kaguya, but stronger than Rikudou Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke. However, I feel Tenseigan Hamura and Rinnegan Hagoromo are weaker than Naruto and Sasuke. Indra and Asura are weaker than Naruto, Sasuke, Hagoromo, and Hamura; but are still stronger than Sage Mode Hashirama and Rinnegan Madara. Perfect Susano'o Kakashi is probably weaker than Hashirama but at the same time probably also stronger than the other four Hokage. It's hard to say who is stronger between 8-Gates Guy and PS Kakashi, because I really don't think Guy could have defeated Kakashi if he was using Kamui, but at the same time, Guy's speed may have made it difficult to use. I feel the first five Hokage are all above the current Five Kage, and Orochimaru is somewhere in league with the Five Kage, but probably stronger than Tsunade. Tsunade is stronger than Sakura, who is in turn stronger than the rest of the Konoha 11. Sakura becomes more powerful than Tsunade, and probably later more powerful than Kakashi as well. Hokage Kakashi is probably stronger than Tsunade, and around the same level as Prime Hiruzen. Sakumo was stronger than the three Sannin during his life, but the Sannin had no other equal except among the Five Kage and Hanzo at this time. Prime Hanzo was probably stronger than the Sannin, but weaker than the Hanzo killed by Nagato. However, I suspect Nagato was stronger than even Prime Hanzo and Mifune, who defeated Weak Edo Tensei Hanzo. Among the Akatsuki, I feel the power rankings where, Nagato; Obito; Itachi; Konan; Kisame; Kakuzu; Sasori; Deidara; Hidan; Zetsu. Itachi is weaker than Obito because of Itachi's weak body. Otherwise, I suspect Itachi would have been stronger than both Obito and Nagato, at the same level as EMS Madara. If it's alright with you, I'm just going to stay with the Kage-level shinobi, otherwise I feel this is going to take forever,
It's hard to say how much I've written. Probably in the hundreds of thousands I suspect, because I have over 10,000 edits and I rarely post less than 10 words and edit. Besides, there is also out multi-paragraph conversations. So I'd say around 500,000 would be an overstatement. However, I wouldn't be surprise if it was higher.
That's absolutely true, but it just might be the price that we would have to pay for it to be extended. Though at the same time, since this is the final fight of the entire series, I could see SP putting a lot of effort into the entire fight to the point where it would be decently animated for the most part and would be stunningly animated for the most important canon moments. While we can all acknowledge that there were a lot of times in the filler content of the Pain fight where the art looked horrible, the animation was actually pretty fluid all the way around. There were problems, but I actually think that is one of the examples of where the anime did a great job of extending a fight from manga to anime. But it all comes down to a matter of opinion. And that's the decision you have to make; even if it may be distracting, which would you prefer- a short fight with consistent animation or an extended battle with good animation for the canon and decent/lackluster animation for the filler scenes, thus making it inconsistent? For me, it would have to be the latter option.
Well, like I said, it would be very easy to add some filler content after their first clash at the end of 694/beginning of 695, as well as adding filler content when their chakra monsters are duking it out. But yeah, it makes more sense that most of the filler would happen during the taijutsu sequence, and if we're being honest, that's what I'd like to see the most. But again, there's no reason why the anime couldn't manipulate the situation to the point where Naruto and Sasuke have a little chakra left to perform basic Shadow Clones/Rasengans and Lightning/Fire Release techniques before going to straight up taijutsu.
And in my opinion, all that filler content was awesome. Though at the same time, there was nothing that happened that wasn't too unbelievable to the point where it looks like the anime just didn't care about following the manga at all. Basically, what do you think is the line that the anime wouldn't cross when adding filler content (for instance, is it too much of a stretch to see something like Naruto using all of the Tailed Beasts powers or Sasuke using Kirin)?
Before we move onto the rest of the discussion, I've been reading around a bunch of places and I came up with a few more topics of discussion revolving around the fight. Some of it has some questions for you, while others are just interesting observations that I noticed. You'll know when I get back to responding to what you wrote, as the first thing I'll mention pertains to you specifically. It may seem a bit redundant, but it's kind of fun to talk about- it's almost like speculating and building upon something that's already been previously established, as we know what the outcome will be. Alright, here we go...
What did you want to see from the fight in the manga that you didn't see (though keep in mind that we are talking about something realistic that the anime could add it- nothing too spontaneous, like Sasuke using Lightning Armor that you talked about in the past)?
Another thing I noticed over the past few years about the anime is that not many battles were being extended like they used to be in the past. For instance, I was hoping certain battles like Alliance vs. Ten-Tails and Naruto and Co. vs. Juubito would be extended, but they weren't. However, I believe there are two main reasons for this. The first is that Ten-Tails and Juubito didn't really have as many abilities that were established to the point where the anime couldn't really extend anything because they had nothing to go off of. However, Naruto and Sasuke have so many abilities that they didn't get a chance to use, and so it would be very easy to extend their battle. The other factor is the point that the two battles were structured very well to the point where there wasn't really any point where a lot of filler could be added. And yet, as I mentioned several times before, there are several points in the final battle where there is a place for filler to be added (I almost feel as if Kishimoto structured it that way on purpose).
While we're still on the topic of anime adaptation, can you think of any points in which the battles against Madara and Kaguya might be able to be extended? For example, I think the Madara battle could be extended in 676 before he goes to activate the Infinite Tsukuyomi, where as there are multiple spots to extend the Kaguya fight, as the structure is pretty loose and allows for expansion.
Now, this isn't really a question, but more of something I noticed while watching the original Part I fight and then the final battle in Part II. The Valley of the End seems very inconsistent in the terms of it's structure. Now, I am more talking about the lower level below the waterfall, as there's never been anything too distracting about the upper level. If you recall in the Part I fight, there was multiple times where Naruto and Sasuke would hit each other under the surface of the water and it almost looked like it was bottomless. However, as seen in the Part II fight, it really doesn't look to be that deep. This is proven when you compare the base of the statues to the water level; the statues initially looked like it was right above the water level and so not much could be determined from that. However, at the end of the final battle when all of the water has been displaced, there is not too much of a gap between the floor of the lake (even though the water is all gone) to the base of the statues. So basically, it doesn't make sense at how deep the water level was during the first fight. I don't know why I brought that up- it was just on my mind and I decided to write about it.
Finally, here is the last element I'm bringing up. Overall, it relates to the amount of Naruto's abilities (and since I'm bringing it up while talking about the final fight, I guess we can compare it to Sasuke's amount of abilities while we're at it). Whenever I found myself talking about how to extend the final battle in the anime, I always thought it was difficult to say what abilities that Naruto could have used during the fight. If you really look at it, Naruto has three major skills: Shadow Clones, Rasengan/Rasenshuriken & variants, and Tailed Beast Mode/Tailed Beast Ball. While he also has other abilities like Sage Mode, that more or less enhances his previously established abilities- it's not really a new technique. On the other hand, Sasuke has so many techniques that it was always hard to mention them all. So with that, how do you feel about Naruto not having too many unique/dynamic techniques (and if we're adding Sasuke to the mix, how do you feel about how it relates to the number of his abilities)? Overall, I wish he had more, but I don't necessarily think it's a huge problem- I'll explain in a later post.
I completely get you- that's how I feel as well. Though at the same time, sometimes I find it difficult to find the right words to explain certain concepts. How often do you have to go to Narutopedia to check up on something/to answer a question? Normally I don't need to do that, but there are times. For example, there was a question about Tsubaki a few days ago that I didn't even know how to answer. I remember there being some Tsubaki in the crappy Mizuki filler, but I didn't think that's what they were referring too. When I finally looked it up, I was surprised to find out that Tsubaki was that gossiping girl from chapter 1- I didn't even know she had a name! xD
In fact, I often give Kishimoto too much credit. Most people talk about how the story has turned into complete sh!t, and I often come to Kishi's defense. It's not that I'm a fanboy who can't realize flaws, but more that I just don't agree with the common opinion that Naruto isn't a good series anymore. But even then, I could never do what Kishimoto does- not only does he have to come up with the story elements, new characters/techniques, ways to write a fight, etc, but he is also the one who draws it all- are you kidding?! That's something I wouldn't even be able to comprehend. Still, there are flaws and that's usually what I try to address.
One thing I want to address is when you said that Naruto acknowledges his own weaknesses. To be honest, I've never really gotten that impression. While Naruto isn't an arrogant ass who thinks he's better than everyone else (like Sasuke), I've never really seen him reflect on what his own personal problems. While he did do that earlier in the series when he was still trying to gain attention and make friends, since he became a demigod, I haven't seen Naruto really acknowledge his flaws. For example, his naive nature was never really addressed, and that's something that would definitely need to change as he grew into an adult. No matter how peaceful the world may seem, there is no such thing as everlasting true peace- that's perfectly clear when we see that the system of shinobi is still in tact 10-15 years later when Naruto is the Hokage. And by that time, there still isn't any indication that ninjutsu has been replaced by ninshu.
What you said about Sasuke is absolutely true and one of his prime character flaws (even though I personally like this element of Sasuke's character), and it's something I'll go more in-depth about in the character discussion. But one thing I just wanted to bring up one last time is that Naruto beat Sasuke by proving to Sasuke that his ideals were wrong. While he couldn't have done that by not at least evenly matching him in the fight, it must be clear that it was Naruto's personality that defeated Sasuke- not by any actual skill, as they were in the same boat together by the end of the fight.
Before I get into the really long part, I saw you mention that they are now allies and any fight they have in the future wouldn't be anything serious. At the end of 699, Sasuke accepted the headband and said he would hang onto it until they had their "real fight." With that said, do you think we may see a little skirmish in the miniseries? I can even imagine that the last time we see their characters is when their about to have rivalry match like Kakashi and Guy, and it cuts away before we see the fight. I think that would be the perfect way to see them one last time in the miniseries...
Also, once again, you summarized all of Naruto's abilities and yet again, it makes sense that no one would ever be able to touch Naruto. While it's still justified because Naruto is the main character, it still is really ridiculous at just how much he trumps anyone else.
Like I always say, you put up an amazing argument while also providing evidence to back up your claims. But I do think there are still way too many unknown factors to make any conclusive decision. For one, where did you get 11% from? Even though he wasn't at full power, he had way more power than a measily 11%. Second, it really is impossible to know just how weakened Naruto and Sasuke really were. Naruto has been fighting nonstop for two nights and one day before the final battle and since his meeting with Hagoromo, he never once showed any sign of fatigue. Even after the Kaguya battle, there was never a sense that he nor Sasuke were ever completely drained after that battle. After all, since she didn't really provide as much of a threat that Madara did besides the fact that she just had more overall power, neither of them were really pushed too hard. So with that, it's really unclear how much chakra they used up during the fight. I could go on and on, but in the end, there is just way too much speculation about how strong they were at the point of the final battle that the debate could continue forever. Therefore, I'm going to try and provide a quick summary in the next paragraph to try and clear all bases that are covered with 100% factual and confirmed information.
By the time of the Five Kage Summit- Naruto and Sasuke were pretty much equals. At that time, Naruto had mastered Sage Mode, while Sasuke had unlocked the true powers of the Mangekyo Sharingan. From there, Naruto went on to train how to master Kurama's power and Sasuke implanted Itachi's eyes in order to use the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan. Naruto eventually managed to tame Kurama and was able to use Nine-Tails Chakra Mode, which allowed him to use the power of Kurama that he had extracted and sealed away for his own private use (though at the cost of Kuarma draining his own chakra supply, which could lead to Naruto's death). Later on in the War, Naruto began working together with Kurama and with their combined powers, they were able to use Tailed Beast Mode. By this time, Sasuke had adapted to the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan, which only really allowed him to use the Mangekyo powers (Susanoo and Amaterasu/Blaze Release) much more easily and for an extended amount of time. When they teamed up together in the War, it almost looked like Sasuke had no chance. This was only further illustrated when Naruto was able to start using senjutsu with his Tailed Beast Mode. At that point, it looked impossible that Sasuke could pose as any kind of a threat to Naruto. When they both almost died and met Hagoromo, they obtained great powers. Naruto gained Hagoromo's senjutsu and the power of all nine Tailed Beasts, while Sasuke gained Hagoromo's eye- the unique six tomoe Rinnegan. In addition to this, they gained a massive amount of chakra that made them superior to any other shinobi alive. By this point, Naruto was still a little more powerful than Sasuke was due to the fact that he possessed the chakra of all the Tailed Beasts. By the time they finished fighting Madara and Kaguya, their chakra was diminished to a certain extent. To what extent is unknown- all that is sure is that Naruto did not use the power of the Tailed Beasts during the final battle and it is unclear how much chakra was drained from Sasuke. When they faced off against each other, both weakened from previous battles, they were about on an equal level of strength. As a result, they fought and while the actual battle resulted in a stalemate, Sasuke admited defeat due to him finally embracing Naruto's ideals. At the end of the day, as you explained, Naruto is now the most powerful person on the planet, with Sasuke coming in at #2. Now- any issues?
With that out of the way, now I'd like to start focusing on the future (even if we don't see a lot of their new skills in either the miniseries or Bolt movie). With a 10-15 year time gap, about how much powerful do you think they have become? Also, do you have any interesting ideas about any collaboration attacks they may be able to pull off together?
Speaking of collaboration attacks, what did you think of their teamwork dynamic during the Kaguya battle? To be honest, I think there should have been more chapters dedicated to the two of them working together and performing more collaboration techniques. Had Sakura and Kakashi not intervened, I think we would have gotten that (or if he just didn't end it at 700- there would be more time dedicated to everything that was neglected). The Six Paths Chibaku Tensei was extremely badass though...
And speaking of 700 (I keep on mentioning things and then thinking of things to discuss about them- it's a curse), what do you think of his decision to end it at that chapter? Also, what ways do you think the series could have been improved had it gone on longer? Finally, what would have been the perfect ending chapter number for you?
Don't really have much to say about the strategy for beating Naruto... just interested to see what you thought up. For the most part, it seems like Sasuke would be the perfect counter for this, as he meets most of these requirements. The only problem is that it is such a vigorous task that his chakra would be depleted by time he would weaken Naruto to the extent where he wouldn't have the power to deliver the finishing touches. Sure he could absorb Naruto's chakra (since he would be able to withstand the effects of senjutsu), but even that would only go so far. I'd say Sasuke would be enough to weaken Naruto to the point where a small army of powerful shinobi would be able to completely defeat him.
I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but do you ever get the feeling that sometimes you overestimate Naruto? While I think it's obvious that he's the most powerful person in the world, sometimes I don't think it would take every single person to kill him. Let's imagine he is consumed by all his power and turns evil like Kaguya- I think he would be able about to be beaten if a revolution occurred, with Sasuke leading the army (since he has the most power to do any sort of damage). By the time Naruto is weakened enough, I'd say a couple of Kage-level shinobi and maybe an entire company/division (if even) would be able to finish the job. I don't think it would require the efforts of the entire Allied Shinobi Forces to put Naruto down.
Exactly- that's why I always wonder why people over-complicate Madara's reasoning behind wanting to activate the Infinite Tsukuyomi; it's pretty cut and dry. There's not much to infer which hasn't already been explained. I'd guess the biggest thing that would need to be considered is how Madara never had the power to protect what he wanted- that's the thing that would require most pondering.
And yeah, like I said, it was just their interpretation. I don't agree with the ninshu idea either. Though I do think Madara was planning on leaving them alive, as he obviously had no idea that connecting them to the Shinju would result in them turning into White Zetsu. I think the reason he connected them was in order to gather all of their chakra together to gain enough power to keep the technique activated for all eternity. That, or it was a necessary step in actually completing the process of trapping everyone in an illusion. After all, we didn't see anyone start the dreaming process until after they were connected to the tree- maybe that was essential to completing the Eye of the Moon Plan?
Obviously Kaguya was stronger than her children. But they still inherited her power, making them one of the most powerful beings on earth, prior to the Ten-Tails' sealing. After all, they were the only ones who could face the beast in the first place.
But regarding Sasuke's Rinnegan, again, we really can't say because we didn't see it. You can justify it all you want with what you've been given, but the real answer is unknown. If we're being honest, we have yet to see the true power of the Rinnegan that Obito alluded to. With only one Rinnegan eye, Madara was able to defeat all nine of the Tailed Beasts. Though he later regained both eyes, he was defeated too quickly before we could see what about the original user having both Rinnegan was so "terrifying." Given the design of Sasuke's Rinnegan, I am almost positive that his Rinnegan is more powerful than the standard Rinnegan (again, that is just an assumption, but because it is connected to the Sage of the Six Paths, it's pretty damn likely). There are also other factors to be taken to account, such as the original technique of the Amenotejikara (similar to Madara's original ability of Limbo) and the fact that Sasuke is the original user of this eye, unlike Nagato and Obito. With the fact from above, I also believe that this one eye is even more powerful than having two Rinnegan eyes that Madara had and never got to display it's powers. Also, don't forget about the fact that Sasuke is basically a prodigal genius who can find ways to master certain techniques even more proficiently than others. It's almost like the one analogy used earlier in the series- a shinobi with more skill is more deadly with a stone than an inexperienced one with a kunai; with Sasuke's skill level, he could easily become the greatest Rinnegan user in history, surpassing Hagoromo, Madara, and Nagato. So with all of that, it is very possible that Sasuke's mastery of this Rinnegan could have put him on an equal playing field with Naruto. Again, this isn't a fact, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.
Really, I think it's probably more like Edo Tensei Hashirama=Edo Tensei Madara or even Edo Tensei Madara>Edo Tensei Hashirama, but whatevs.
Preta Path is one that absorbs ninjutsu and chakra. The most commonly used technique associated with the Preta Path is the Blocking Technique Absorption Seal, which creates the barrier. In that sense, you are right- that is not the technique Sasuke used. But what else would have done that? Furthermore, how did Sasuke absorb Naruto's chakra that Kurama supplied him to create the Chidori? That was certainly the Preta Path, as it's the same thing the Pain Preta Path did when he absorbed Naruto's Sage Mode and turned into the frog. As far as the direct contact goes, that is just another example of Sasuke's advanced usage of the Rinnegan. The Preta Path is more than just one technique- no reason to think why that would have been anything else but the Preta Path, as there is no other explanation.
There's a lot of different translations of the scene with Madara. I read the most reliable one and it pretty much noted that they weren't fast enough to escape Onoki's particle absorption technique. Even then, that's most likely a weakness of Madara's Edo Tensei body. To be honest, the rules revolving around all of this was never truly explained in great detail and so it's just another thing that can be debated till the end of time.
True, but what about his offensive attacks? Don't you think he should have been a little more dominating in these battles? He was the Ten-Tails Jinchuriki after all. That's what made chapter 676 great- that was the one that showed just how formidable of an opponent Madara truly was. Had the entire fight been those like 676, it would have easily gone down as one of the best fights in the series.
Did you envision the sealing process going down differently (like what the sealing actually looked like)? I imagined something completely different, but in the end, what we got was so much better. Besides that, anything else about the Kaguya fight you liked? Also, everything after the sealing (690-700)- yay or nay?
Further piggybacking off of the other question about the length of the series above, do you have any issues with the last ten chapters? And had you only had ten chapters to complete the story, would you have done anything differently?
I think my main issue was the pacing- there were almost as many build up chapters to the fight than there was the actual fight. I think I would have made it so that Sasuke neutralized Sakura in 692 and they left to go to the VotE at the end of 692. Then they would arrive, talk a little bit, and then start fighting around the middle of 693 instead of repeating some of the same dialogue they did in 694. Then we would have all of 694-698 dedicated to the battle. Likewise, I would have also tried to make every chapter a bit longer- like 20 pages each. Finally, instead of making the last chapter full color, I would spend that time making it a much longer chapter (like 40 pages or whatnot) instead. I understand it was probably hard for Kishimoto to do (and again, I could never do something like that), but with the proper planning, it's not impossible.
You actually went more in-depth than I thought you would. When I post my list (in another post- this one is ridiculously long already), I'll probably only do like the top 5 or 10 shinobi. I found it surprising how you put Rinnegan Sasuke above Ten-Tails Madara (I knew you'd put Naruto above them)- can you elaborate on why you did that? Again, I can't really differentiate between Rikudo Hagoromo and Rinnegan Hagoromo since we didn't really get to see how their power levels differ from one another (you'll see when I do mine). It really is hard to determine between 8 Gates Guy and PS (or as I call him BS... horrible joke) Kakashi- I'd like to give it to Guy because he got there with pure hard work, while Kakashi just... you know what he did. Though in all honesty, Kamui's intangibility would probably tip the scale more towards Kakashi. Now, I actually think Sakura is more powerful than Tsunade, but again, I'll save the reasoning for another time. My Akatsuki list is pretty similar, though I would probably put Kakuzu in either Kisame or Konan's spot- I can't decide if he is stronger than Kisame, but he is definitely stronger than Konan. And it is a shame that we never got to see Itachi's true strength, as he would have probably been the #1 member in the Akatsuki.
Yeah, I feel like I'm in the same boat. I can't imagine how many words are in this one post (I actually checked with Microsoft Word, and apparently it's 4437 words... interesting)! Speaking of the technicalities, how much longer until you get the One Year Achievement?
I just thought of something random, so I figured I'd add it to the discussion.
When do you think we'll start getting more information about the upcoming miniseries? Also, do we know when it's supposed to start besides the supposed and very vague April release date? Furthermore, it is supposed to appear in WSJ again, right?
And on a more speculative note, anything you are expecting/absolutely want to see from the miniseries?
To further get my point across, I've compiled a few images in the manga where I think the fight could be extended since they are pretty much sequences that don't follow such a strict structure to the point where the flow would not be interrupted.
So with that, what do you think of these possibilities, especially #1 and #2 (since the last one is pretty much a given)?
Also, just how powerful do you think Naruto's two attacks in this picture were when compared to his other powerful techniques? What we have here is a massive Six Paths Senjutsu-enhanced Wind Release: Rasenshuriken and a massive Tailed Beast Ball Rasenshuriken. I actually think this might be one of Naruto's most powerful attacks, maybe even on par with the Six Paths Senjutsu Tailed Beast Rasenshurikens he used against Kaguya. First of all, we already know what a normal Rasenshuriken is possible of. When making it larger, it showed that it had the power to destroy a large area of land and was even able to destroy Madara's Edo Tensei body. It's power is even escalated more by combining the Six Paths Senjutsu to the technique. Then we have the Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken- a normal one of that is capable of destroying a massive Chibaku Tensei satellite that Madara created; by increasing it's size, it's power becomes even more devastating. All this, combined with the fact that Naruto was at a senjutsu power overload (due to Kurama amassing so much at one time) and combining his clones together into one body in order to control the two techniques make me think that it actually was one of Naruto's most powerful techniques in his arsenal. What do you make of this?
The Tailed Beast Rasen-Shuriken and Wind Style: Massive Rasen-Shuriken are indeed two of Naruto's most powerful attacks, but they are still not more powerful than his top two.
Naruto's second strongest attack is his Continous Tailed Beast Rasen-Shuriken, it fired multiple Tailed Beast Rasen-Shuriken at multiple targets. That's six Tailed Beast Rasen-Shuriken in total. No matter how you look at it, I seriously doubt Naruto's Wind Style: Massive Rasen-Shuriken makes up the difference.
Naruto's strongest attack is indeed confirmed to be Sage Art: Super Tailed Beast Rasen-Shuriken. It was so powerful it was declared the "most marvelous ninjutsu of all time".
I know what you are trying to do, rationalizing how two of Naruto's lesser techniques outmatched Sasuke's strongest. Don't try. The amount of nature energy Kurama absorbed for Naruto is irrelevant. Don't forget that nature energy can only be balance with the chakra you already have. If you chakra is low enough, the senjutsu chakra sometimes can not even be equal to your normal chakra levels. Naruto was at his strongest when he fought Madara and Kaguya. Some of that chakra was lost during the fight, Naruto was able to recover some of it via Kurama, but only to balance what chakra he had left in him. No matter how you look at it, Sasuke's strongest technique is inferior to Naruto's.
I'll respond to what you said when you get back to everything else. Do you have the time to get back to these at all (I don't have any classes tomorrow, so ill be around)?
Though I will say this- me bringing this up wasn't really about rationalizing Sasuke's power, as we've already come to the understanding that Naruto is stronger than Sasuke (I provided a full summary in the previous message that I'm interested to get your feedback). I merely brought this up because I saw that image when I was going to look for the other three that I posted, and since I didn't recall us really talking about that sequence, I just decided to bring it up. It has nothing to do with Sasuke. That being said, I do have different opinions based on what you said, but I'll get into it later.
Oh, f*ck I completely forgot your birthday!!! I knew it was some time in February, but I haven't had a lot of time lately and so I haven't been checking to see the correct date. I actually did the same thing for my uncle as well- it was his birthday yesterday and I completely forgot.
Either way- happy birthday!!! :D How old are you now- 22 or 23?
EDIT: Nevermind- just checked and your birthday isn't until Wednesday... good, now I'll be able to wish you a happy birthday on the right day! XD
That sounds nice. Do they all live close to you? And I completely understand how busy you can get, but don't forget to take at least one moment to enjoy the day. Are you doing anything special with some friends?
And while I'm here, quick question for you about how to proceed. Do you want to continue the other discussion on the Otsutsuki blog, or would you rather just continue it on this message wall instead? After all, since there is a lot to say there, I could see it going on for some time. Therefore, it may be easier to relocate it all to one place. Whatever you prefer works for me- if you would like to move it here, let me know so I can post all that I wrote on this wall. Thanks, and I'll talk to you soon!
If you see this message, could you just quickly tell me which of the two options from the message above that you prefer so that I can proceed appropriately?
Next, like I said before, here is my list of the strongest characters in the series. First I'll do just all the characters in general and then I'll do the Akatsuki. Now, unlike yours, I will not be posting the same character in multiple slots. For instance, I wouldn't post Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto is one spot and then put Tailed Beast Mode Naruto in another. Also, I won't be listing any characters whose abilities we never accurately saw, despite how powerful they might have been (such as Hamura, Indra, and Asura). The only real exception to this is Hagoromo, as we've heard so much that I believe it's justifiable to put him on the list. After we've both laid out our cards, this could be a nice gateway to another topic for discussion. With that said, here we go!
(BTW, I am pressed for time so I am just going to leave the list and then write my explanation at another time).
I. Top 10 Strongest Characters:
1. Kaguya Otsutsuki- I do have a very hard time putting her at #1 just because of how lackluster she turned out to be. In my eyes, my #2 is really #1, but from a story standpoint, she is technically the strongest character in the series. Though she may not be a great fighter, she has the power to do almost anything she wants and if she really developed her skills, there would probably be no one who could touch her. Basically, Kaguya is the definition of untapped potential.
2. Rikudo Madara- Frankly, I was surprised when you didn't put him above Naruto and (especially) Sasuke; looking forward to your justification on that one. In my eyes, he is actually #1 over Kaguya because he is almost as powerful as her and he also has the battle sense to where he knows how to correctly use his powers. With this, I feel like I don't need much convincing about why he is up this far. Essentially, what I believe puts him above characters like Naruto, Sasuke, and Hagoromo is the Rinne Sharingan he developed. He is only the second person to ever awaken that eye in history, and since it is directly related to Kaguya, that makes him the second strongest shinobi in the series. Had he actually been the final villain where we would see more of his skills, I believe that would become more apparent.
3. Hagoromo Otsutsuki- While we didn't really get to see his real battle skills, I think him being the Sage of the Six Paths is enough justification. He defeated the Ten-Tails/Kaguya alongside his brother, created ninshu and the Tailed Beasts with the Creation of All Things technique, became the Ten-Tails Jinchuriki, and many other godly feats. There's really no argument necessary to prove my point.
4. Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto Uzumaki- BTW, I do think the adult Hokage Naruto is probably the strongest Naruto, but since we haven’t actually seen that, I’m going with this form of Naruto. Like all of the most powerful characters that have Six Paths chakra, I don’t think there is a need for a large explanation. However, what puts Naruto above someone like Sasuke is the fact that he has chakra from all nine Tailed Beasts, and since you've already explained all of the different ways this is beneficial, I don’t feel the need to.
5. Rinnegan Sasuke- Like Naruto, I’m sure that the adult Sasuke is probably the strongest version (mostly because he probably mastered the Rinnegan by this point), but again, we never saw that. Like Naruto, we’ve had so many debates about these two characters that I once again don’t feel the need to explain why he is this high up on the list. However, what I will defend to my death is that I do think Sasuke would be almost at an equal level, and maybe even exactly as strong, as Naruto if he mastered the Rinnegan completely. If you need me to explain why, I wouldn’t mind doing so again.
6. Perfect Susanoo/Kamui Kakashi- This was a very tough choice, and I really wanted to put my #7 choice as #6 instead, but after thinking it over some more, I realized this made more sense. I believe Perfect Susanoo/Kamui Kakashi would even give someone like Naruto, Sasuke, or Hagoromo a run for their money. Not only is the Perfect Susanoo both an extremely powerful offensive and defensive ability, but the fact that he can implement techniques like Kamui (and maybe even Raikiri, based on what Sasuke did while fighting Naruto) makes it even more powerful. However, what puts Kakashi above everyone else is the fact that he can use Kamui at all levels- he can warp things away from a close distance, and now is also able to become intangible like Obito by sending his body parts to the other dimension. If he is like Obito, he should only be able to keep this up for five minutes, but with all he has at his disposal, Kakashi would be able to finish most battles in that amount of time, so it shouldn’t be an issue (he should only really struggle against the five characters above him). It may be BS that Kakashi was this powerful, but it’s also indisputable that this Kakashi is easily one of the most powerful people that ever lived.
7. Eight Gates Might Guy- Like I said, I really wanted to put Guy in Kakashi’s spot, but I don’t think he would win in a fight between the two. While I think he could easily destroy the Perfect Susanoo, Kakashi’s Kamui would make it impossible for Guy to land a decent blow (it’s possible that Night Guy may interfere with Kamui like how it affected Madara, but I doubt it). But as far as why he is this high up, his impressive speed, combined with the Evening Elephant and the Night Guy could wreck almost every shinobi. With this power, I think it’s even possible for Guy to take on an entire army all by himself. And if you’re in any doubt, just look what he did to Madara- that’s enough proof right there.
8. Rikudo Obito- Much like Kaguya, I can’t really justify this one because he didn’t really display anything that was too mind blowing (when looking at their feats, Pain was much more impressive). The only reason I put him this high on the list is because it was stated by multiple people that he was on par with or more powerful than some of the greatest shinobi like Hashirama, Madara, and Hagoromo. I believe there was a lot more we could have seen with Obito, but we just didn’t get it; similar to Kaguya, a lot of potential but it was just wasted.
9. Hashirama Senju- It’s almost shocking just how low Hashirama really is on this list. But compared to everyone listed above, he doesn’t really stand a chance. But despite that, Hashirama is absolutely one of the most powerful shinobi in the history of the ninja world. Of course his greatest feat is the usage of Wood Release (which I never really understood how it is so powerful, nor do I believe that simple tree techniques are superior to spiritual chakra deities, but I concur), but his strength is further amplified by his usage of Sage Mode and his extremely large chakra supply. I’m saying this a lot, but I don’t really feel there is much of an argument here- it’s pretty obvious why he is this high on the list.
10. Nagato- I believe Nagato is probably the best Rinnegan user we’ve seen in this series, even better than Madara, though that’s mainly due to the fact that he awakened it at such an old age and didn’t have much time to perfect it like Nagato did (it’s likely that Sasuke will surpass him in the future since his Rinnegan is natural, but as it stands right now, Nagato is still way more proficient with the Rinnegan). His skill with the Six Paths Technique is his greatest attribute, along with the fact that he was able to master all of the different chakra natures. His usage of the Six Paths of Pain is also an amazing ability, as he has strength in numbers by using multiple bodies at once. Nagato was an incredibly dangerous foe during the Pain Invasion Arc, and it’s very surprising that he is actually this low on the list (if I was doing multiple characters in each slots, he probably wouldn’t have been on this list, as an extra Naruto and/or Madara would have replaced him).
II. List of Akatsuki
1. Nagato- Same as above.
2. Itachi Uchiha- Had we actually seen Itachi’s full power without him holding back or being affected by his illness, I’d actually be willing to bet that he would be on par with, if not stronger, than Nagato. Not only does Itachi have access to the always effective Susanoo, but he also has access to many other techniques such as Amaterasu and other Fire Release abilities. However, where Itachi really shines is his use of genjutsu, specifically Tsukuyomi. Itachi is without a doubt the best genjutsu user in the entire series. Above all else, Itachi’s intelligence in both battle and life are enough to even put him at a level close to Hagoromo. And this is all him either holding back or weakened by illness. If we got to see him at full power, he would probably be #1.
3. Obito Uchiha- For Obito, it’s really all about the Kamui. While it’s not exactly the most explosive attack, there are so many ways to utilize Kamui to use it as an offensive ability as well as a defensive ability. While he also has a few Fire and Release abilities, as well as the potential to use more Rinnegan abilities, it really is the Kamui that puts him on such a level. That, and his master manipulation skills, which is his greatest attribute.
4. Kakuzu- Not only do I believe he is extremely powerful, but I just overall love the character of Kakuzu as a whole. His abilities are extremely unique in the sense that it allows him to live forever (almost), but he can also manipulate all of the five chakra natures at once to create a combination technique of epic proportions that can cause a large amount of damage (such as combining Fire and Wind Release to create a massive firewall). Overall, Kakuzu is really a force to be reckoned with. Of all the reincarnated characters during the War, I feel like Kakuzu got the shortest end of the stick; defeated way too easily.
5. Kisame Hoshigaki- His greatest attribute is his extremely large, almost abnormal, supply of chakra, which gives him the nickname of the “Tailless Tailed Beast.” That, combined with his large supply of Water Release techniques, shark summonings, and his proficiency in using Samehada, Kisame is definitely one of the most powerful Akatsuki members.
6. Orochimaru- Who doesn't love Orochimaru (which is very ironic, as I hate snakes)? Besides the fact that he has access to a large number of techniques due to all the research he’s done, his most common trait is the usage of many different snake techniques that actually present a very large threat. That, and the fact that he can constantly switch to different bodies which allows him to obtain many other techniques that may be exclusive for a certain person or clan.
7. Sasori- Since I already explained a lot of this to you, I don’t feel the need to go in depth. However, let me just say that the amount of techniques Sasori has at his disposal is almost sickening. From Hiruko, to the Third Kazekage (which allows him to use the several techniques connected to the Kazekage’s Iron Sand abilities), to the army of one hundred puppets, and finally to his own body, Sasori’s arsenal is almost neverending. Again, I do believe his defeat was pretty unconvincing and he was only beaten for the sake of the plot.
8. Deidara- It’s a shame that one of my favorite Akatsuki members is so low on the list. But his techniques are really only based on explosions, and so that can be countered easily with so many other abilities at his disposal. Still, certain techniques like the C4 Karura and his suicidal C0 prove exactly why he was a member of Akatsuki in the first place. Maybe not one of the most powerful members, but definitely one of my favorites!
9. Konan- Like Sasori, I kind of explained why I feel like she’s so low on the list, so I’m not going into a lot of details. While she is certainly a very capable shinobi with a lot of great attacks up her sleeve, she just can’t compete with the Rinnegan, the Mangekyo Sharingan, all five chakra natures, an army of puppets, or even basic explosions.
10. Hidan- Hidan just flat out sucks. All he has going for him is his immortality. While it’s certainly a problem if he gets your blood and carries out his ritual, the process is still so complicated that a competent shinobi should be able to stop him beforehand. While he has decent taijutsu and kenjutsu skills, it’s still nothing impressive. Easily one of the worst members of the Akatsuki.
11. Black Zetsu- I was half tempted to put Black Zetsu above Hidan due to all of the sh!t he was responsible for. Besides the fact that he is the best manipulator in the entire series, he also has the ability to use Wood Release and also the abilities of anyone he attaches onto (such as Kamui when he was attached to Obito). Thinking more about it, he is probably more of a threat than Hidan, and I should probably put him at #10. But then I realize that I hate Black Zetsu with a passion, so I’m just not gonna do that.
12. White Zetsu- White Zetsu has nothing other than the fact that he can absorb and supply chakra (which is actually a pretty interesting connection to the Shinju if you think about it). Other than that, he can’t do anything. He’s only a threat when there’s an entire army of him to face, and even then it’s not really a big threat.
Okay, sounds good! If it ever gets too much, I wouldn't mind posting it here. There's just a lot of good ideas flowing over there that I don't want to lose by not combining them. After all, it's easy to forget about it when there is so much to think about on this message.
I think the beginning of the fight and the taijutsu battle near the end are indeed ideal points for filler. However, I would like the Perfect Susanoo/Tailed Beast Mode clash to have filler in it, because I feel it would be more entertaining. It will really depend on how much effort the animators want to put into the fight.
So, what made you want to add Konan to the bottom of the Akatsuki list? Even the Revolution game developers felt Konan was stronger than Sasori. Honestly, Zetsu goes on the bottom no matter what, but I've felt Konan was stronger than both Sasori and Deidara. In the end of the day, Sasori's jutsu relies on shinobi being flesh and blood, as well as using metal weapons. Konan's battle style is neither. Deidara might present more of challenge, but I think she could avoid both his C2, C3, and C4 with ease. It's his C1 bombs I'm curious about, but I'm sure she would be just as difficult to beat for Deidara as Gaara was, even though the only real reason Gaara was beaten was because Deidara forced him to protect Sunagakure.
I was planning to just respond to all of this when you got back to the previous message, but I'll do it now since you asked a question. You can consider any question/topic I mention as an extension of my previous long message, and so I'll get back to everything else that you mentioned (like the "Naruto's strongest techniques" debate) when you respond to that message. Like I've said before, I brought up some really interesting questions/topics up for discussion in that long post that I'm looking forward to see your answers.
Yeah, as I've said before, they are great places to add filler, and of all the parts where I would want to see extended, it would be those parts. But like you, I also want their "Transformers battle" to be extended as well. Again, I think it was structured very loosely so that it would allow filler to be added. Specifically, I think a lot of content can be added in that one panel from the manga that I posted above. While I do agree that it would be very entertaining to see this portion expanded, many fans disagree and say that they hate this part of the fight (I am not one of them)- why do you like this portion/did you like it more than when they were fighting with basic ninjutsu and taijutsu?
As I've said before, I am worried that the anime might not realize the importance of animating this fight to the best of their ability (look at Naruto vs. Pain- that was a very important battle and we got Looney Toons animation), but I'm going to trust in SP and be optimistic.
Your comment also leads me to one more topic I just thought of (not including the few questions I brought up in my previous post). It has to do with which of the two fights you prefer more out of Part I and Part II (I believe I asked you this in the past, but the question got lost somewhere along the way in the discussion). I created an entire thread about it on Narutopedia, and so I'll just post it here as well (I'll put it in italics so you know where it starts and ends).
Naruto vs. Sasuke- Part I or Part II?
Which fight do you prefer- Part I or Part II, and why?
Now, keep in mind that a real conclusive opinion can't really be made until Part II is adapted in the anime, as it is highly likely that the battle will be improved/extended in the anime. So I'm mostly referring to the manga when I'm referring to this topic.
As far as I'm concerned, in the manga, I like them both equally. While I do wish Part II was a little longer, I pretty much saw most of what I wanted to see (now it's just up to the anime to extend the battle in order to add more of this content so it doesn't feel as rushed). Also, while Part II did seem a bit rushed and it would have been better to draw it out a bit more, it got straight down to the point by pretty much focusing on the action and there wasn't as much talking as there was in Part I, and when there was talking, it was in isolated sections whereas it occurred throughout the course of the fight in Part I. So when it comes to the manga, I like both equally for different reasons. As for the anime, I obviously can't form an opinion yet. However, due to the fact that the anime will most likely extend it with filler content and animate it with the best quality possible, I will probably end up liking the anime fights on an equal level as well (maybe even liking Part II more than Part I- it all depends on how well it's handled).
So, what's your opinion?
To be honest, I always felt Konan was always extremely overrated. Not that she's a bad character (she's actually probably one of the best female characters in the show), but I never really saw anything that put her above the characters I listed. I almost feel as if the fact that her main ability is paper manipulation might come back to bite her since paper is so vulnerable. Granted, it's obviously no ordinary chakra because she infuses it with her chakra (which is why it usually isn't weakened by water like normal paper), but it's still not really on par with iron sand or detonating clay. Many people often praise her as being one of the few people who managed to deal some major damage to Obito. However, that was only because of preplanning and analyzing his technique over an extended period of time. Had it been a spontaneous battle, she probably wouldn't have been able to deal any damage at all. I wouldn't really count the Revolution developers as reliable sources; I'm pretty sure it was just a plot contrivance so the players wouldn't have to control Pain for every battle. Even then, I don't really think Konan could beat Sasori. Hell, I even have an issue with the fact that Sakura and Chiyo defeated him; again, it just felt contrived and forced. The only reason they stood a chance was because Chiyo was so knowledgeable of many of his techniques. I'm not really a fan of Sasori (in fact, he's probably one of my least favorite of the Akatsuki members), but the way he went out was kind of BS.
Whatever the matter, we can at least agree that Hidan is easily one of the worst Akatsuki members, right? All he has going for him is his immortality. Other than that, he doesn't have any other distinct abilities that really make him much of a threat. While sure it's definitely a problem if he gets you trapped in his sadistic ritual, it still is very tedious and takes too long to set up in a battle.
I was almost tempted to put Black Zetsu up a few higher pegs than I put him solely because he did so much that resulted in the current state of the shinobi world. Plus, he could use Wood Release, seems to be able to use the abilities of those he attaches too (like Obito's Kamui), and when he is connected to Kaguya, he can also use the All-Killing Ash Bones and Amenominaka.
Anything else you want to say/debate about my lists? I hope to have the explanations done by tomorrow, as well as my alternative Naruto ending that I'll post on the Kaguya blog. If you didn't see in my previous long post, I had a few questions about your analysis of character strengths that I look forward to an explanation when you get the time.
Just wanted to let you know I finally finished that other thing on the Kaguya blog (BTW, when you respond to that, can you please do it an a separate comment from the rest, as there's a lot to say and it would probably be easier).
With that done, all I'm doing now is waiting for you. Can you let me know how you're doing with getting to all this stuff?
EDIT: Didn't feel the need to make another new message. My friend sent me a link to what is probably the best fan animation of Naruto and Sasuke's final battle. Here is the link. When you respond to everything else, can you let me know what you think of this video?
Three things I want to bring up. If you get this (which you should, as you get notifications), can you just let me know what's up with what I presented in the first topic (the other two can be saved for later). The first pertains to everything, the second is dealing with that video I posted in the previous message (kind of), and the third is something that I'm gonna be adding.
The first thing is are you gonna have any time soon to either get to any/all of the following:
Everything in this discussion that you still have to read
What we were talking about on the Otsutsuki blog
Alternate Naruto final battle/ending (also on Otsutsuki blog)
? There's a lot to read and write about, so I'm not expecting you to get to every one, as that's asking too much. All I'm hoping for is to get at least one of them done this weekend.
The other topic I wanted to bring up pertains to that Naruto vs. Sasuke fan animation, as well as any other fan animations I've shown you in present videos. Now when it comes to this, just to keep things organized, please don't give me your thoughts on this until you're ready to get back to the entire thing. Now, I was talking to someone else and like me, they really want to see the anime add one or two scenes of Naruto creating 10s/100s/1000s of clones and then having to see Sasuke take them down through various methods, as that's usually what happens in a lot of Naruto's major fights. From all the different elements I mentioned when it comes to filler, this is one of the ones I want to see the most. And as you can see, all of these videos I have shown you usually add a scene like that. With all of that said, what do is the likelihood of seeing a scene where Naruto creates a lot of clones to face Sasuke? Also, is that something you personally want to see?
The final thing that I'm bringing to the discussion (like the other message, please treat it as just another extension of my previous long message instead of a new post) is the current status of Naruto's Six Paths Sage Mode. There seems to be the belief going around that Naruto can no longer use this anymore. I don't know why they feel this way other than the fact that he just didn't use it against Toneri (and BTW, the movie never said he couldn't use it because Toneri absorbed his chakra- he had three days to rest and by that time he was at full power). While I don't really agree with this, it may also be a possibility. While the chakra of the Tailed Beasts still remain inside of Naruto in order to convene meetings, it's possible that he can no longer use them for battle because that chakra was exhausted while fighting Kaguya. I also think it's possible that Naruto was using some sort of variant of it in the movie instead of just basic Nine Tails Chakra Sage Mode. After all, it's possible the anime screwed up the coloring of this mode by illuminating Naruto's skin. Also, keep in mind that Truth-Seeking Balls apparently don't regenerate after he loses them in combat, as witnessed when he only had three when fighting Sasuke. Once they were gone, I wonder if Naruto can no longer use the Truth-Seeking Balls. So what do you think of anything I just brought up?
EDIT: One more thing for when you're ready to get back to this discussion. I was browsing around and found this image for Storm 4. If you've ever seen the Storm boss battles, they're usually pretty epic (even if you don't play the games, just watch them on YouTube- its entertaining without even having to play it). So far, I think this looks amazing and this is another thing I want the anime to do. Do you think something like this is possible?
I go to YouTube to find the names of them for questions. However, I highly suggest you purchase the actual OST. You should support the official release, it's the best way to insure you get the best quality for the OST.
You can't add videos of the official release without the proper copyright. Stuff from YouTube for the most part is a big no-no. Don't add anything, manga scans, scene shots, or otherwise; without the proper copyright information. Visit the Image Policy page to read up on what is appropriate to add to this site, and how to do it properly. If you need help, let me know. Otherwise, I will delete whatever you add, and if it becomes a progressive problem you will be blocked.
Incidentally, I didn't forget about your question. I have been going over the Part I OSTs for the past few days now, and I can tell you that the theme you are looking does not have an official release title. You should know that not all of the themes were released for the general public, only the most popular. Only about 68 actually made the cut, but they are the most popular and most used ones.
The reason questions like yours go so long without being answered is because it is very time consuming to answer it, because you have to go through each OST's songs to get the title of the song you wanted, and that is something you are perfectly capable of doing as well.